Drukama RadioTM Episode 27 – The Process of Magic
Today Daishi speaks to Charlotte on the subject of Magick. What is the relationship between magic and spirituality. How can we use magick to take back control of our lives? Why is it important to have a good foundation before attempting to practice magick?
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Episode 27 Extract
The Process of Magick
“It’s better to know what you don’t know, than to know what you know.”
~ Daishi Nagiyah
Drukama™ podcast extract – EP27
Full Transcript of This Episode
Charlotte: Hello and welcome to Drukama radio. My name is Charlotte and today we’re going to be discussing the process of magick. When I was given this topic I began to think about how we use the word magick in our daily lives.
Whether we’re telling a story from a magical evening with friends or relating how our lost keys suddenly magically reappeared or even asking our doctor for a magical pill that makes our aches and pains go away.
The word magic describes something that’s ethereal, something that’s ephemeral. A process that happens behind the scenes that we can’t quite put our finger on but we know the outcome is amazing and better than we ever expected.
Here at Drukama we’re obviously interested in all things through a spiritual lens and there is no one better to answer our questions on spirituality than our beloved Daishi. Hi Daishi, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you?
Daishi: I’m doing great. That was a fantastic introduction to a huge topic.
So I appreciate that and I hope that we can have a good dialogue about this topic in such a short time because it deserves weeks of discussion and so we’ll do our best to fit it in the next 15 or 20 minutes.
Charlotte: So let’s just jump right in. From your perspective, what is magick and how does it relate to spirituality?
So that’s such an enormous question because it depends on who you’re asking.
Magic has so many different definitions because it depends on if you’re asking a stage magician – he’ll tell you that magic is sleight of hand and deception of audience perception.
And if you ask a Tibetan Monk, they’ll tell you an entirely different answer about mantras and chanting and spirits and influencing the way that we perceive. So we have this huge spectrum and that makes it really difficult to answer in terms of what magic really is and how it influences the world around us.
I would say that if we look at the basic idea of magic in terms of the English standard definition, it’s having something change unexpectedly.
So having an outcome happen, that’s surprising and I think that happens within each person, every millisecond of every moment of every hour of every day of every week.
Magick in that way is the cells that are acting in your body interdependently and carrying out tasks without you knowing. It’s your heart beating without you reminding it to beat. It’s your kidney function, it’s your digestion.
It’s your thoughts which are so magical that they pop up and appear and can seem to generate all kinds of abstractions and fantasies even when we don’t want them to appear. So magic is emotion.
It’s the crying over a symphony or a song or a story and I think magic takes on all of those terms and it takes on all of those meanings in our life. Even down to the magic of the birth of a child, which is almost impossible for us to even grasp.
We don’t even really understand the full depth of how that happens. So magic really is happening when we speak, when we feel, when we think, when we act. Magic is going on constantly around us and yet we don’t tend to pay attention to that kind of magic. Instead we want to see things that are overwhelmingly shocking and then we consider it to be magical.
So magic is happening constantly in my opinion and for the sake of this discussion, I think however, we’re going to try to talk about magic in terms of changing perception and changing the reality we experience and if we can keep it in that vein, then the least we have some kind of direction to go in that will help us keep the conversation more specific than it would be otherwise.
Charlotte: It seems that the definition of magic has always been a little bit elusive.
When I was reading some definitions of it, I read one written in 1885 in the mysteries of magic by Arthur Edward Waite and he defined it as “All magic is in the will that secret of universal power in heaven and on earth.”
Which leads me to my next question. What religious, spiritual or shamanic traditions have used magick in the past?
Daishi: The answer is all of them. I don’t think there’s any mystical tradition throughout history that hasn’t embodied some form of magick.
I think the idea of mysticism is to partner with the laws that are set in place around us. And once we partner with those laws or understand how those laws behave and the the way in which the intelligent design of the universe around us works, we can begin to become creatively involved in that process. And become joint partners with the universal laws themselves and end up modifying, potentially, outcomes and changing the way that our lives are perceived and lived and enjoyed etc. So shamanically, traditionally in religious environments from the, you know, Jewish Kabbalah through to the Christian Gnostics and the Mohammedan traditions of the Middle East that go way back obviously as well, and their magical influence to the Yogis and the Tibetans and the Asians, specifically China and Indonesia and Thailand and Okinawa and Japan and I mean they all had their own wealth of magical influence.
Everybody in the mystical communities was seeking to take control over what they felt was the dominance or the confusion and suffering, which they were under within these universal laws.
So you had a mystic that basically said I’m in some type of slavery here, underneath the laws that are dominating me.
I want to learn about those laws and then try to either partner with those laws in some way or manipulate those laws in some way to create an environment, that’s more conducive to what I want to experience. And most human beings would agree that their lives aren’t necessarily the way that they want to experience them.
And so therefore mysticism came about to say let’s find a way to change them on the subtlest level, so that we can experience life in a way that we enjoy it and want to live it. And I think ultimately that’s what the whole human experience is. It’s finding purpose, understanding ourselves and the laws around us and then utilizing them to create the kind of experiences we want to have. I think that’s mastery of life.
Charlotte: Were there any specific reasons that these groups used magick in the past?
Daishi: I think again it was for trying to take back control. If you look at the historical writings that go way back in our history of humanity, you’ll find that most people felt that there was some control over them.
As a mystic became deeper and more embroiled into the underlying subtle energies, they began to realize the same thing – that life was coercing them.
Universal laws were coercing them in some way. And I think this is easy to see in today’s modern scientific discoveries as well.
I mean we see that the way the brain operates the dendrite, axon firing of the synaptic process in the brain, determined somewhat by our nervous system and then firing off into emotional resonance that tends to generate perception and influences our physiological body and therefore causes reactions to the things that we experience through thought and speech and action.
I think if you look at all those things you can say, well we’re under a heavy burden of slavery because everything in the body-mind is controlling us to a certain degree or controlling our experience. And the habit energies of the brain and the habit energies of the body are generally going to react almost systematically to what’s happening around us. And as we wake up to the path of spirituality or mysticism – I just call it evolution – but as we wake up to that we realize my god, I’m under a huge burden here. My mind is doing things I don’t want, my emotions are doing things I don’t want, my body is doing things that I don’t want, and my identity is reacting to all these things that are happening and basically I’m just a passenger in this vehicle. And that’s a terrible place to be.
And now that I’m waking up to that point that I’m really just cognitively experiencing the auto behavior of my body-brain, I don’t like that and I want to take back some control. Now whether that control is just perceived or actual is irrelevant because what I experience is all that matters. You know again, there’s the reality and there’s my reality. All I care about really is my reality because that’s what I’m experiencing. So as I move down this mystical tunnel or this rabbit hole, I begin to understand how much coercion is against me.
How many things are happening to me as opposed to me happening. And because of that coercion, I begin to wrestle like a child in the womb and kick and push and I want to break free from that slavery, those bonds, that bind me down, those chains that bind me down. And I want to begin to understand what’s operating against me and how can I understand it better so that I can start to utilize it.
So magic in all of its forms is basically that. It’s saying, explain to me the process that’s influencing me. Then I’m going to work against it or work with it in order to create the kind of reality I want. Because what I have in front of me is not what I want and I want to begin to understand reality in a much clearer and more illuminated way. Or because of that fact I can then begin to dictate how I experience and what I experience. And that tends to bring us down to the actual roots of what options we have in terms of making change and those options are called magic for lack of a better word. Although I don’t really believe that that’s a good term anymore because there’s too much Woo-Woo to that term.
I think it’s just becoming aware of our facility. Becoming aware of our vehicle and then beginning to operate that vehicle and therefore operating the way that perception happens around us because all perception is happening within the vehicle. And therefore generating the kind of reality I want to experience. All of those things are magic sure, but they don’t have to be Woo-Woo. They’re just me understanding my mechanism better and that is absolutely and entirely plausible. And we’ve been told for thousands of years that it’s plausible to understand that mechanism, to utilize that vehicle, to generate the kind of perception we want, to generate the kind of experience we want to experience. And I think that that’s the whole backbone of magic regardless of how we do those things, once we begin to understand them is irrelevant. Whether it’s ritualistic magick or mental magick or divination or evocation or invocation or all these kinds of ideas of magic. Really the heart of it all is – explain to me the structure of creation and its laws and then I’ll begin to work with it so I can create what I want.
Charlotte: What are these laws that you talk about? And how do they work against us?
Daishi: Basically everything comes down to the senses. We have one major kind of oscillating vibration in this universal structure and that one oscillation tends to break down within a human being’s perception to small bandwidths of senses. So we have sight and taste and touch and so on.
These senses relate with elements and we have five of these known elements and they’re broken down pretty basic. We have earth and water and fire and air and space. And basically those five subset into subsequent five and so on, establishing and explaining how that oscillation is broken down. That oscillation is the core of how everything is generated.
So when somebody says well, everything is just one wave, everything is just the particle watching the vibration. It’s true. So you have consciousness experiencing this movement, right?
So movement is just, however, for lack of a better word, the faster or harder that oscillation is, it generates different densities of elements. And we call those densities in this structure physicality. So a very deep oscillation is density, like wood and it’s stone and all sorts of heavy dense materials forming and shaping in different ways. And as that oscillation, and again, this is just a way of explaining it, don’t hold this to me scientifically, but as that oscillation becomes less, the material substance, the physicality becomes more subtle. Like water and fire and vapor and wind and so on into space.
So everything’s based around the way that we break down that oscillation in those five senses.
Once we begin to understand those five senses and those five subsequent elements, how they relate to the five centers, we begin to see that everything is generated from these broken waves and into their bandwidths that we can experience.
Now the trouble with this, obviously, is that when we talk about sight for example, between ultraviolet through the spectrum we get but a very small window. So our physical sight is extremely limited obviously. We see a fraction of what’s really happening.
The same thing goes from hearing. I mean, we know that the dog will hear things that we can’t hear. It’ll perk up and start to react to sounds that we have no idea are happening. We also know that around us is a whole bunch of radio waves sending signals around us. Signals to our devices like a Wi-Fi and our cell phones and our radios and so on.
That’s all happening and we can’t see that, we don’t know that it’s there. If we were to tell somebody – Oh, the Internet’s all around us and it’s an entire playground for billions of people to explore – if they didn’t know about Wi-Fi and Internet, they would think we were mad.
They would say you’re insane that can’t be true, but we know it to be different. We know that it’s there, we just don’t see it.
So our senses are extremely limited. Now as we break down deeper into the internal perception of senses, as we get more subtle and we’re able to access a bigger bandwidth of those senses, we can begin to understand the parts that are missing from our tactile senses.
So in other words from site breaks down a certain kind of element, breaks down into a certain kind of energy center in the body, which breaks down into a certain kind of deeper mental aggregate and perception. As we break that down we begin to understand that the bandwidth widens, it gives us a bigger view, it gives us access to that bigger view and then we can also influence the view. We can influence, excuse me, not the view, but actually the oscillation.
So as a really rough example – if my mind is tight and wound up and there’s a lot of thoughts going on, that would relate to the wind element.
If I had access to counteract that wind element, I could cause the mental oscillation, the vibration, the iterations of the mind to calm down as well. Everything’s based on these underlying senses and how they influence us. If I was feeling incredibly emotional and I was overwhelmed with emotion, if I could bring water back, balance water, or add something to water like fire, I could create a change in that emotional state.
Because everything is being influenced by the outside environment, the macrocosmic environment by the influence of this oscillation and how it’s oscillating to us and how we’re perceiving it and dividing it up between these five senses and these five kinds of elements and these five kinds of centers and how we’re perceiving that generally is going to influence how we perceive all of our experience. And it’s easy, you can see that one person is going to watch one experience in the outside world and feel a certain way about it.
And another person is going to experience the exact same thing and feel completely and entirely different. Possibly entirely opposite of it. It’s the same oscillation. It’s the same experience. Basically the same wave hitting each vehicle, each person.
But it’s being perceived entirely differently within each person because of the way that they accept that wave or oscillation.Now if it’s true, and we know it to be true, that each of those vessels can react or act and perceive entirely differently from the same experience, then why couldn’t I modify myself more like the other person and perceive the way they do. We can. So here’s my point – if I can modify my state to become more like the other vessel, why couldn’t I modify my state to be like any vessel. This is exactly what spirituality is about. It’s about understanding this process that’s happening within and then modifying it so that we can experience how we wish to experience rather than how we’re determined to experience by the body-brain vehicle itself.
And this is the start of magic. It’s the beginning of magic. It’s the beginning of understanding what that term means and how to utilize it but again that term’s strange. I like just evolution.
I like just becoming the captain of your vessel, right?
Charlotte: Given that we can influence the oscillation and accept the oscillation or be like any oscillation, are there any risks or benefits to using magic?
Daishi: It depends how we define risks and benefits. And again, this is something that will get into philosophical discussions. If you think of risk as any harm, or the way that I see harm happening to my vessel, then that depends on how we define harm. For example, sometimes something negative in perception can happen to someone and it’s only later that they look back on that negative experience and realize that, boy, that was actually really important for me. That experience was really positive and I needed that experience. And therefore, at the time, I thought it was entirely negative.
But now that I look back on it with a bigger view, a better consciousness, I realize that that had to happen and that was entirely important for me to become stronger and more courageous, less angry, whatever. So it actually worked to my benefit.
So it depends on how we see harm and negativity and so on. And again, this goes back to understanding the path itself in great detail and realizing how the path actually functions for us in a positive way.
But if we understand that we can utilize those events in a way that helps us evolve, every experience leads to more conscious clarity and awareness and awakening. Then every experience is positive.
So during the experience itself we may have a bias and say well this is really bad or this is harmful or this is negative. But when we see the bigger movie and not just a slice or a picture of the movie or that instant, when we see the bigger picture of the movie we can look at it and say oh no no no, that wasn’t bad at all.
That was really important and I used this definition the other night during a Satsang where I said if you just had a picture, if I snapped a picture of an operating room during brain surgery of just a scalpel, a glove and a brain open up in someone digging that scalpel in the head and said here’s a hospital. This is what a hospital is like. And you had no other idea what a hospital was like, you would be standing out in front the hospital shoving and pushing patients out of the door saying don’t go in here!
This is the devil’s working and they’re going to kill you and this is terrible! And your intention would be fantastic, and you would be trying to save people’s lives and it would be courageous and wonderful, but you would be unintentionally killing people, right? It isn’t until later that I showed you the entire interaction from when the doctor sat with the patient, pre-op, what was wrong with the patient, what they did to the patient, how they saved the patient’s life, how they stitched the patient back up, how the patient was then leading a great, fulfilling, healthy life afterward. Until you saw that whole picture, would you say – Oh my lord, I’m exactly opposite of where I should have been and I should have been helping people into that hospital.
Now that example is just to show you that the same thing happens in our lives every moment. If we don’t have a full picture, if we haven’t opened up our consciousness to a larger picture, we’re going to take just slivers of experiences and rate and grade and judge those slivers with faulty data.
And our abstractions and our conclusions that we make from that faulty data is necessarily going to be wrong a lot of the time. Most of the time in fact. So the first part of the spiritual path is becoming clear about where our biases are. You know, it’s like they say – you judge other people, but we never really judge ourselves.
So when we look at someone and say – oh you’re ignorant, you’re hateful, you’re evil, you’re mean, you lack compassion and so-and-so – do we also ever look to ourselves say do I also lack these things?
Before I cast that stone am I also seeing these things in myself? We hardly ever do that. We’re never as judgmental and critical of ourselves as we are of other people. So the first thing on the path is to become really honest and to understand our limitations. I always say – it’s better to know what you don’t know, than to know what you know.
There’s a huge difference between those two things. It’s of paramount importance on the spiritual path to understand what you don’t know. And the first thing we do is realize by elimination what I’m not and what I don’t know or don’t have perception toward. And that helps us open up to the parts that we may be missing, and not to jump way off subject here, but those parts that we’re missing are important before we get into the manipulation of reality through magic or trying to enhance and change and fix things that are going on. Because again, how do I know what I need to fix if I haven’t seen a bigger picture. Do I really need to fix this or is this actually good? Do I need to alter this or is this actually something that’s beneficial?
So the last idea, and I’ll let you finish this up, but the last idea is, if you’re driving down the freeway and someone swerves in front of you – the first reaction for most people is to either swerve back or scream and yell and curse that person. But if they were to know later that that swerving into them caused them to be two seconds late to a car running through a red light which would have killed their entire family, they would have gone back to that original scene and thanked and loved that person for swerving toward them.
Nothing changes just the knowledge and the data changes. So the first part of the path is opening ourselves up and gaining more data, getting away from our biases and understanding how our filters are screwing up that data set, so that we begin to see more clearly.
Then from that clearer perspective, as we understand the structure of creation and the universal laws, we can make better decisions about what we want to change, if anything. And that’s really where the wisdom of this magical kind of evolutionary process is paramount and important to our advancement.
Charlotte: So if we wanted to begin incorporating magic into our daily lives, given everything that you’ve just mentioned and talked about, what really needs to be in place before we start that process?
Daishi: We really need to see clearly or a little bit more clearly at least, before we start to alter things. Now there are some things that we will in the path that we teach especially that we start to alter right away. Things that we know are obstacles for us only because they’re in the way of our practice, our waking and seated practice.
So we have to make some alterations to things like bad habits. Okay, those bad habits might turn out to be habits that we may reinstitute later. They may be beneficial in some way later, but in the beginning they’re not. In the beginning we want to try to clear away as much of the fodder as possible so that we can utilize the most beneficial perception and states of being that we can in order to get going on the path. And that means that we have to get rid of things that are hurting us physiologically, things that are bad for us in terms of like diets, certain things in our diet.
We need to generally be as healthy as we can. We need to watch our sleep. We need to definitely learn how to breathe correctly. We definitely learn how to, how to exercise a little bit or at least become pliable, not necessarily exercise, but pliability which is important. And emotionally we start to make balances there emotionally by releasing and letting out a lot of the habitual emotional issues we have. And stabilizing and opening and relaxing our mind and learning how to get our brainwave down into a deeper state, so that we can relax that unbridled horse that is the mind stream. So these are things that we would use magic for. Again, I’m using that word loosely there. We would use magic to overcome and compensate some of these things so that we could get them out of the way and then have less obstacles to go deeper and deeper into our mystical path. At some point there, we would then consider those things again and realize okay, I removed some of these things initially. Now let’s look at why they were there to begin with. Now that I have a better purview, let me see why they were there and the reason, the root that they were there, so that I can get to the root and figure out what the actual problem was.
So in that way sometimes magic can be just clearing a pathway, getting rid of all the obstacles, getting myself to a place of better view, better perception, clearer perception, radiant awareness and then looking back on those things later when I have that bigger more radiant awareness and then figuring out how to fix those things from their root and why they’re there and so on and so forth. That helps to understand who we are at least in the body-brain and why we were set up that way, where those things came from and how I can get rid of them because either they were or are or are not helpful to my progress.
Charlotte: Daishi, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for answering my questions today and unfortunately we are out of time. But before you go, where can we go to get more information?
Daishi: You can always go to our website drukama.com d-r-u-k-a-m-a dot com and join our family there. We have a tremendous amount of talented, very experienced adept teachers and tutors there. You get a wealth of information.
There’s all kinds of bonus content, but most importantly there I will walk you through, week by week the techniques practices both waking and seated so that you can do this practice at the comfort of your own home and then go and get experienced advice from everybody that’s in this family and there’s hundreds of practitioners throughout the world who have been down this road already.
So that website is where you can go get everything you need in terms of what i’ve discussed and talked about. And again, like I always say, if you don’t get that from us, and it just doesn’t fit you go somewhere and get help from somebody to understand more about the brain-body vehicle that you’re in, because that’s really where we’re going to solve the problems.
Problems are gonna be solved from within not without. We’re never going to change the world, which is obvious, we’ve been trying to change it for centuries.
It doesn’t change. What’s going to change is when we change ourselves from within first. So if you can’t get that help from us, get it somewhere, please. Until then drukama.com is the place to go to get more information from us in particular.
Charlotte: Thank you so much Daishi, and thank you to our listeners for joining us today. If you have a chance, please rate and review us on iTunes.
It would really help us out. And if you have any questions or comments, please send them to firstname.lastname@example.org
Take care and be well.