Drukama RadioTM Episode 34 – Relationships and Ego-Selfing

Today Daishi and Ginger discuss the subject of all kinds of relationships on the path. What does an authentic relationship look like? How does the ego manage to sneak into all of our relationships with others? What kinds of relationships can be beneficial on the path?

Relationships and Ego Selfing - Drukama Radio™ Ep 34 - Drukama Teachings™

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Episode 34 Extract

Relationships and Ego-Selfing

We want to control the other party… to get what we want … The same thing happens in a marriage.

You might say, “I love my partner!” I’m sure you do but you want that partner to do, generally, what you want, when you want it. And there’s some slip room but, for the most part, it’s going to happen like that or there will be consequences; you will punish them in some way.

That is control. Everything about control is ego-based ’selfing’ fear. The only reason I need to control someone else, or force someone or coerce someone to do or see something the way I want them to is because of fear.

I want everything to be like me, or think like me, or see things like me, or they have to be eliminated!

~ Daishi Nagiyah

Drukama Radio™ podcast extract – EP34

Full Transcript of This Episode

Ginger: Hello everyone. Welcome to Drukama Radio. My name is Ginger and I’ll be your co-host today. We are very grateful to have Daishi with us for this episode. We’re going discuss relationships and ego-selfing. Daishi how are you today?

Daishi: I’m doing great, I hope you’re doing well as well, and I’m excited to talk about this interesting topic.

Ginger: So, as we begin a discussion on relationship, I think it’s important to point out that relationship is not always just about our partners, spouses, intimate relationships. Are we also talking about parents, children, family members, etc, different relationships, we might have in life?

Daishi: I think the term relationship covers every kind of interaction we have with every other human being and animals, rocks. It can be the forest, the dirt, your shoes. Relationships in general are everything that happens that we typically see outside of ourselves, but could include ourselves as well. I could have a relationship with my own ego if I get into a certain kind of spiritual state. I can have a relationship with my own memory. I can have a relationship with my digestive system. So yes, you’re right. Relationship goes way beyond my partner and you know we can dig into the different kinds of relationships but at the core, the way we interact in whatever relationship that happens to be, is the heart of the story. I think at some point during this discussion hopefully we get to that heart.

Ginger: Yes, that would definitely be the intention. So when we talk about relating there always seems to be an “I” and a “them” or a “you”. How does that tie into our discussion today?

Daishi: There has to be two pieces to this pie, and in every relationship there has to be a subjective kind of viewpoint, and I have to have subject object, and so there’s a “me” as “them” something. There’s some agenda on one end – typically in the based relationship – and then there’s the desire, some force that goes toward another object outside of whatever I am, and that force begins to build or go after its agenda toward that object. And most of the time it’s two agendas going after each other, so it’s two subjects, and they each have their own hidden agenda, sometimes conscious, sometimes unconscious.

You know we can say that they’re conscious in the real estate deal, they’re unconscious in a loving relationship sometimes and so on. But there’s usually two agendas and they’re coming toward each other, and what’s odd is the way a normal egoic relationship bases its value, is if those two agendas can be successful together in length, in quantity and quality, which is really opposite of how it should be, – and we can talk about why that is – but that’s how we see an egoic relationship, like a regular selfing kind of relationship. It’s my agenda versus your agenda. And can I cope with your agenda? And can you cope with my agenda? And in what quantity and quality can that work? And then we call it successful or not.

Ginger: So, this sounds to me like a conditional relationship, is that-

Daishi: Absolutely right yes, a conditional all the way around in it. Typically even when we think of an unconditional loving relationship I can say, with most certainty that there’s still a condition there somewhere, because if there is an I, there’s an agenda and if there’s an agenda it cannot be completely unconditional or impartial.

Ginger: So given that most of us are still in this space where all the relating that I do is sort of from this “I”, whether I like it or not, when I enter into these practices and I’m on the spiritual path and I’m like “okay I understand there’s a problem relating from this ‘I’ space but I’m not in a place yet where I can really do anything about that”, how do we begin to approach relating as we’re unwinding these paradigms that we’ve lived in for so long?

Daishi: That’s a great question, really powerful question, because that is probably one of the biggest obstacles. So “I’ve realized there’s a problem, but the agenda-driven self is still controlling me” and that can be ultimately frustrating. “I want to have true relationships.” “I want to love people impartially.” “I want to have compassion toward others.” “I want to see them the right way without my filters and my egoic junk.” “I just want to let them be free” and “I want them to be able to be whoever they are, without my influence, and my agenda.” And that would be great, that’s the impartial view. And that’s a completely compassionate and totally perfect kind of way to have a relationship. It’s to allow someone to be whoever they are, even if that involves me or not, so in other words I can have a relationship with someone where they say “I don’t have anything to do with you” and that’s perfect because that means they’re fulfilling whatever it is they want. They have the freedom to make choice and decision, and live their experience how they want to live it. Unfortunately as you said, on the path is we move toward that space of losing more of the ‘selfy’-residual kind of stickiness of agenda, and the conditional-ness of everything and the societally influenced a reactionary kind of mind and emotions, we see the problem. But I can’t really love you truly, like I can’t love you without some kind of entanglements and attachments, and then now that I noticed that problem, and again this is somebody who’s moved down the path a little bit and as they continue to move down the path they see this even more, so they see the tiny spots of dirt within the vessel, but they noticed this more and they realize “this is even a bigger problem than I thought”. Because as “I’m acting, I don’t know whether to go left or right, or up or down here, I’m not sure if I should have relationships or not have relationships, I don’t know what to do because I know everything’s agenda based. I need something, period, in every single conversation I have with every single person, otherwise I wouldn’t have it, right?” In other words, the reason I’m engaging you is because of some need inside, whether I’m conscious of that need or not, and as I become aware of that process it bugs us because we want to get free of it.

So part of the stream entry position of being a heartfelt impartial person, or at least trying to achieve that state where we can truly allow others to be free and still have compassion toward them, seeing that error can cause struggle. It can be a very difficult challenge. The whole point of it being a challenge is that it’s a major part of the path. That’s where we have our rhythms and corrections and all those things. This is how I think, again, education on this “spiritual” kind of that dirty word, but the evolutionary path has two principal parts; One is, “I want to feel and sense, I need to feel and sense where others are coming from without filter. I need to be able to sense them.” That’s the spiritual sense, you know, the sixth sense – this other kind of sense – is where I can connect with people without my icky filters in the way then the other side of the path is creating a diamond like radiant mind that’s cleared and free of filters, and completely resting and absolute presence both of those things. That heartfelt compassion impartially is married with a clear mind, and that’s what we want to achieve and then because of that everything that happens through the other person becomes my joy – it becomes my pleasure, it becomes my fulfilment. So, when I see somebody else and anybody else achieve any kind of happiness success or joy or anything even contentment, somehow I gain, somehow that hits me freely because I don’t have an agenda in this at all, and I’m able to open up and expand into all those vessels. Suddenly my agenda, if there is one, the desire at least is about everybody equally like I want everybody, everybody, regardless of how quote/unquote screwed up we see them. I want everyone to be free, clear minded, and full of impartial compassion. That’s the goal I want for everyone, because I want everyone to see that that’s truly how the human being can connect and unify and we can live in a world where we don’t have all of this crazy ignorant suffering.

So as we continually grow, and especially when we snap into that stream state, where the attachments are entanglements itself have been withdrawn enough that we can clearly see all of the egoic aggregates – the memory and the intellect and the identification and all of these things are seen clearly, now we say “yeah I know your ego tripping and I understand that you have memories that are good and bad and all but I’m free from that”. As that snaps, we see how important it is for others to also have that position because it’s so beautiful one, it’s so freeing and it also redirects my desire, now not just for this little tiny body but for the whole of the entirety of all of sentient relationships and beings everywhere. That’s the point of having those two parts of the path come together.

Ginger: So wow, I hear all of this and I can connect with a lot of what you’re saying, however what immediately comes up for me is standing in the house, having a discussion with someone and not being able to hold that space, still in disagreement or still finding myself pushing an agenda or not really even knowing what the problem is, so, although I may have an intention toward this clarity and compassion, what does this look like on the ground?

Daishi: I love it, real world. Let’s go to real world. So there’s this kind of hypothetical world I created and we talked about, that’s where you’re impartial and you’re compassionate. You let everybody have freedom and this all sounds wonderful but then let’s come back to where most people are.

And where most people are is agenda based. It’s like I have something I need to do in the real world, and I’ve got somebody else who doesn’t want to do it. Okay, now they might in their conscious state may believe that what they need to do is really important or whatever point they’re trying to make or whatever relationship they’re trying to build is very important, and the person on the under end of this may have objections to that and then we have a struggle. My agenda is not your agenda and because they’re not aligning, we have a struggle. I call that a war. Now people say well, “you know Daishi it’s not a war, it’s just two people are disagreeing.” It’s a war, because what escalates from that? And I’m just going to extremes right? So, if I send a nuclear weapon towards another country because inevitably they’re not doing what I want, it’s a control measure, and anytime we put control on anyone, whether it’s a nuclear war or a slight disagreement, it’s all about control. We want to control the other party. If you’re sitting down to buy a car and the car salesman says “hey I’m not doing nuclear warfare I’m only earning a living.” No you’re coercing and controlling the person in front of you so that you can get what you want. The same thing happens in a marriage. “No, no, I’m not, I love my partner” I’m sure you do, but you want that person to do generally what you want, when you want it and there’s some slip room but for the most part it’s going to happen like that or there will be consequences. You will punish them in some way. That’s control.

Everything about control is ego-based selfing fear, right? The only reason I need to control someone else, or force someone, or coerce someone to do or see something the way I want them to, is because of fear and that comes from the ego. So, I want everything to be like me, or think like me, or see things like me, or they have to be eliminated, and eliminated can mean a variety of things. If I have a partner that just goes “you’re not doing what I want you to do get out,” or “you’ve hurt me in a certain way and so now I’m going to punish you back thousand-fold,” right? I’m going to get you back 70 times. These “relationships” that we say we have with our friends and family and our partners, and you know, people we meet on the street are always going to be this way, that’s why the problem inherently with humanity starts with each one of us.

Solely, completely, it’s on us. We’re always trying to control everybody else and governments are trying to control each other. States offices are controlling each other. Different types of schooling are controlling students, and families are controlling siblings, and are controlling each other – the sons and daughters, fathers, mothers, partners, and friendships. Everybody’s controlling each other to some extent and we allow the other person to control us to some extent because we know. We calculate through the intellect aggregate, that you know, “hey I’m going allow them to have this one because I’m going come after them for other things.” So it’s just this kind of business relationship constantly that’s just honesty. If you look at the relationship in every case it’s always going to be this way. And if you believe that “well, it’s like that probably in business and maybe with some of my friends, but it isn’t with my wife,” then you haven’t gone deep enough because it is. It’s like that with your wife. The relationship you have with your son is the same way, the relationship you have with your grandfather….

As I said it’s always going to be that kind of control, to some extent now you may be completely unconscious – as I said earlier – of that process. But this is the main problem with humanity in general, it’s fear because of the ego need that turns into control agenda, and that isn’t authentic in any way. That’s putting up different faces in fronts depending on the agenda. “Okay, you know I need to make sure this gets done. I’m going have to do this, I’m going have to do that, I’m going have to become this person, or become that person. I have to put these measures in place. We’re just constantly acting like an organism that is constantly parasitic when the ego is in control. We’re just always trying to get our agenda fulfilled and so that happens constantly, unless you said “what does this look like in a normal relationship?” You know if you’re in a marriage and you have a partnership and your partner tells you “hey I’m going out Friday.” And you say “I’d rather you stay here. I don’t want you to really to go out because I don’t feel like going out.” You’ve got a little conflict now. You’ve got two agendas that aren’t going see eye-to-eye there, because I don’t want you going out by yourself because god forbid you go out and find somebody better than me, and I lose you and I lose the control over you. And I don’t myself want to go out because I’m not really interested in that. It doesn’t fulfil my pleasure, so my agenda simply becomes to coerce you to stay with me and everything works out good for me in that regard. That’s one example of a hundred billion examples. We can put that into any scenario but it’s usually like that. You know oddly enough I’m going to perform a wedding this week, but the funny thing is I’ve split up more marriages than I think that I’ve made, because I tell people on the spiritual path it’s very hard to have a relationship until you reach a certain point of honesty. And at that place of conscious honesty you can say “hey I’m going to ask you for something and it’s selfish. I know it is but I need it, and I need to ask you, but I’m clear about it. I’m honest. I’m seeing it for what it is.” And it’s not that we need to change your- or kind of deconstruct or kill the ego or the aggregates. No, we don’t want to do it. We just want to become clear of how they act. We just want to see them for what they really are and be clear and conscious about them.

This is part of elevating ourselves up past, them, and what happens at some point is a new kind of paradigm comes in, and the fear, the fear and lack of the self is seen for the illusory nature that it is, and we just let it go. So now when we go to the part where I’m going out Friday. “Have a great time.” “I might not ever come back.” “If you find something better, go after it, right. Whatever you need to do.” “You go have fun,” and that’s all I care about. “Send me a postcard.” That’s truly free on your end and you’re giving them freedom to be whoever they want to be on their end. That is really where we can live without bondage, without imprisonment toward ourselves and others. And if we could learn to elevate to this level – and that’s really what the path is about, it’s about elevating to an ultimate authenticity – then we’re so free and boundless that our qualities, the attributes that we’ve become inside, elevate us up into a new realm of reality a new dimension of reality. I know it sounds a little woo-woo, but that’s true – we literally rise because our own attributes have changed and now we match attributes that are outside this lower binary dualistic realm we live in here, and that’s the beauty really of the core pound.

Ginger: Thank you. What I’m hearing at this point is that we’re going into a space where we’re offering the other person true freedom, and that seems like it would just really shake the foundations of this thing that we call a relationship. It changes the whole paradigm to the point where it’s like “whoa, how is that even a relationship?” Because it kind of takes the brackets off of it and sets it into a whole realm that we would maybe be unfamiliar with.

Daishi: How that’s so scary right? That’s scary so most people would be like “oh my god we wouldn’t have any relationships anymore!” No, you’d have real relationships and they would be real, with everybody. It wouldn’t be exclusive, they’d be inclusive. They would be perfect because everyone would expect and understand the same thing from each other – just authenticity. So there would be no hang-ups and fears. We wouldn’t be afraid of each other. We would know that ‘so and so’ is going to tell me exactly how they feel and think and from a place of total freedom, and I’m going to accept that and be absolutely okay with how they think, and how they feel. I’m okay with that on my end, and we can have a relationship quote unquote for two seconds, or twenty two years, or twenty two hundred years, whatever, but the point is that the beauty of that is relationship -which is a term that we use to define control. I’m in a relationship with this person- “oh you own them, they own you, whatever, whichever where” and that goes away, and it just becomes a verb, “relationship-ing”. It becomes something different. That just becomes the way we live and that authentic kind of way of living is very free, and it’s very beautiful, and is very relieving. You can rest in that there’s no worry, anxiety, stress, and tension. I’ll have to worry about murmuring and people not liking me, and I don’t have to worry about you know not having what others have and all this weird, crazy, viral, parasitic, strange behavior goes away and we just become free and clear. And so we want this but we’re scared of it right?

Ginger: Absolutely we want it, but we’re scared of it and then maybe being honest about that fear of stepping into that new space with another person would be something to just touch on, because how do you agree on doing this and step into it without this?

Daishi: I just want to say something to that – where you’re going right there is important, because like how do I do that when no one else is doing it?

Ginger: Exactly.

Daishi: Can I trust other people to do that with me at the same level at the same time? The answer is ‘no’, and that’s why the path is so uncommon. It’s like everyone’s at the edge of the cliff and at the bottom is a big bouncy ride, like a bouncy house. And it’s a hundred thousand feet down and someone’s like “well I know if I jump I’ll have a blast, but I don’t want to be the first one.” So you hold my hand to jump with me, or maybe you go first and everyone’s looking at each other and saying “oh I’m not going to be the first one.” Do you know, in all honesty that’s fair and understandable, because if I become free of myself how do I trust everyone else to not take advantage of me and use me up? Like if I’m free, and honest, and authentic, isn’t everyone else who doesn’t also do that, going to just chew me apart? The answer is ‘no’, not at all, because when you become that thing, when you really become that thing, again the fear is the correction. The fears that we’re feeling about going to that space, is part of the going to that space.

The path is the fears, and overcoming the fears of that space, in part of course is other facets of the path. Of course, we talk about all of those things but one of the main parts of it is that fear, that “geez you know, I don’t know if I can let go of the me agenda.” You know like, “I don’t know like how far can I really let that go.” And unfortunately, in order to enter into that a higher space, you’ve got to let go of all of it. So usually what happens is somebody climbs or walks or hikes or whatever we call, you know, travels along that path one step at a time over a long period of time – could be lifetimes right, 10,000 lifetimes. Then you get somebody who has walked through that 10,000 lifetimes or 50 years – whatever, it makes you feel more comfortable in whatever terms you want to use but let’s just say for a long time – and then they realize “listen, these little steps I’m taking, these turtle steps are not getting me there fast enough. I get it now I just need to do it. Let’s just get there.” And then you can get somebody who’s on fire.

Basically like “I’m really ready to do something radical and let go, and become like”, and then they’ll usually leap out a little bit, and then jump back. They touched the fire a little bit and then jump back, and then they leap a little further and jump back. These are kind of the step forward, step back, step forward step back, that kind of process that happens as they’re trying to get through that and crystallize stream state. This is where someone’s very close, where they’re actually saying “I really want to let go all of it but I’m still holding on to things.” And what makes it a little bit more complex is that it’s not just intellectual conscious level stuff – we’re dealing with deep unconscious unseen and states and restrictions that were unaware of, that are down there somewhere. I’ve had people tell me “I’m ready to do this. I want to let go of all of it. I see the attachments and all the reactions and I see the mind stream flowing everywhere, and I want to let it go.” But for some reason, the moment some kind of rhythm comes up, I jump back into the protective selfing mode and I can’t help it. That’s absolutely right because along this path, breaking down those unconscious barriers takes special kind of work. If it was just some easy psychological practice, everybody would do it and it’d be done in a week. It’s not, it’s a deep journey. There’s like a hero’s journey, and you’ve got to understand the process through which it happens. If you don’t have kind of an expert with you, if you don’t have somebody who understands that you’re going to always be at the conscious level and as soon as you make a little bit of conscious movement, the unconscious will come back and pull those legs from under you and take you right back into that fear again. And you’ll kind of crawl out again and say “I want out of here” and it’ll drag you back in and a feeling “wow how do I get rid of this?” And of course, you’ll be making advancement, but you won’t see it.

But in order to really make it quickly, you need somebody to show you the tricks, because when you’re in the middle of it, you’re surrounded by it, it’s impossible for you to see the exits, and to see the ways of pulling away, and analyzing, and watching it, and working with it, when it’s everything you are. So this is where a good teacher comes into play. But the point is the fear of other people dictates a lot of the parts of how the path works out, and that’s why a lot of people have throughout history, the great sages, the great Yogi’s, the great masters, they’re great, you know whoever has attained, have usually gone off alone for a little while and taken their teachers instructions, and tried to get away from just society, just people in general. Just knowing that like “I can’t deal with human beings on any level anymore, because I know everything I’m doing is selfish. I need to get away from everybody and kind of get in the best possible condition I can, to look at this thing, and start tackling it, and unwinding it.” That’s the importance of a group, because if you have a group, everyone’s working in the same direction hopefully, and everyone’s at different levels, so you’re always challenged from either someone a little bit ahead of you or someone a little bit below you, and you can kind of use that in a safe space. But out in the world itself you can get chewed up, because there is no wakeful intention there yet, and a normal person – you know someone who has decided that ‘there’s nothing wrong with me. You know I love, I love endlessly, I love unconditionally, I have no ego.” You know, they’re not being realistic and honest with themselves. Yeah, they haven’t woken up to the fact that they’re there is suffering, there are elements, and there are misunderstandings with how they function, and they haven’t been honest with that yet. That person will chew up somebody who hasn’t yet attained a certain level of knowingness on the path, so you create a group and you stay within that group as much as you can. You kind of retreat from the group and go do your practice contemplation, and grow and evolve and then go test yourself back with the group again, and test yourself with the teacher again. This is how we move forward, and depending on your level of courage that takes lifetimes, or decades, or years, or months.

Ginger: So it sounds like there’s different types of relationships that we have with, let’s say, outsiders. There are people that are not really on the spiritual path, and then there’s another type of relationship that we might have with our spiritual community where we’re sort of playing in this middle state where we are getting clear, and we have an intention to be clear and compassionate, but we’re not quite consistent with it. But then there’s a third relationship that we might have with somebody that would be ahead of us or even with the teacher. It’s three different playing fields – can you speak to that some?

Daishi: Yes and that’s great, because it’s important to know when you’re dealing with the outside world on the path. You have to be a certain way when you’re dealing with the group. You have a whole other playing field as you call it. You’re absolutely right, and the teacher is a completely different stratosphere. So, you’ve got these three weird relationship groups, and it’s important for anyone starting the path to know outside people are going to inevitably start to get a little bit, they’re going to become interested in what you’re doing, and when I say interested it could be negative or positive. When they see that some of your buttons are not there anymore as you work on the path and this could be a problem. So, let’s say that I live with my mom, my brothers, sister, whatever, my spouse, doesn’t matter, and I’m going through the path, and they’re starting to notice that. And listen, they don’t need to notice this consciously. This usually happens unconsciously, that there is a certain pattern or some buttons that they’re not able to push anymore, and the unconscious side of the person – the ego – gets an alarm, and goes “Warning. You’re losing your control over so-and-so.” And they will deliberately make problems and challenges, and then they may not know why. They may not know why, and these struggles can come up and you may notice that “boy, this is- my mom and I are having issues,” or “my partner and I are starting to have issues and I’m not sure why? I’m being easier going than ever.” The problem is the partner seeing that and that is not good for them if they’re not on the path, that’s actually a negative; because if you are becoming less controllable, that means emergency. They can start acting very irrational and start doing some things that are really crazy, just out of survival mode. I’ve seen this happen over a thousand times over more than a decade, where people have had problems at home that have just popped up and they say, “Daishi, I have no idea why but so-and-so is just like…I feel like I’m being easier going, I’m more patient, I’m more…” Yes that’s a problem.

Okay so you have the outside group, we’ve got to be careful with them. You’ve got to try to maintain the same kind of relationship, try to maintain the same kind of personality. But with the group, the group you can experiment. I have seen interactions with our group between people that would have cost full-scale wars and relationships that would have been damaged and ended forever had it not been for the fact that they were working on the path and were able to come back later and say, “You know, I missed there a lot,” and the other person say, “Yeah I did too, I saw that.” The group has the ability to look back and say, “You know, I see a lot of my aggregates acting up, my mind stream acting up, all of this intelligence kind of coming out of me here and there and please understand that that’s not really towards you,” and of course a group member said, “Yeah, I get that, right. I am going through the same thing.” So the group has a little bit of a different relationship you can get away with a lot. The outside you can’t; you got to be a little more careful. Unless of course you don’t care. You know, if you don’t care you’re like, “Hey, you know my partner’s not dealing with this well, too bad. This is more important than anything and I need to make this work, and right now I got to get clean before I try to get anybody else clean.” I get that part of it but that’s really up to each individual.

But as far as the group goes, the group is the sandbox where you’re trying to test yourself, and you will be challenged because the group is also going through correction, so you’re going to hit somebody someday at some time and they’re going to be on the precipice of a huge rhythm and you’re going to be in a precipice of a rhythm and you’re going to smack like two planets, and it’s just going blow up into something you’re going say, “Wow, what happened?” And really what happened was just that you’re conscious of it and you corrected it. You’re going to move on; and you can trust the person to still be in that group and going forward, and that trust in that group and that repetitiveness reinforces our courage. It allows us to reinforce that courage and it gives us, “okay you know what, I’m feeling a little bit like I can go out a little further. I trust the group a little bit, I know they’re not going to hit me with a shovel so I’m going to go a little further, a little further, a little further and it helps to reinforce the courage so that we can eventually say, “You know what, forget it I’m done with it, I’m outside of it.” The last one is the teacher and that’s a whole different thing. The teacher is strictly here to push you, and the teacher should, or the mentor; whatever word you want to use. I know I grew up with teachers because it’s the student relationship but you have somebody that specifically understands where you are, and they want to push you just enough but not too much, and they’re going to push you just here and just there, and then mould and shift just a little bit ,so that you’re never quite content but at the same time you’re like, “I trust this person but at the same time sometimes I want to punch them or sometimes I feel like I’m doing something wrong, or they’re not being honest with me or truthful, or not telling me, or they’re not doing something right, or they’re not coming after me the way they should.

All of these kinds of judgments and analysis and conjecture comes up in the mind and that’s being created by the teacher, because that’s your challenge, to overcome all this nonsense. This mind-generated drama nonsense. So, the teacher’s job is to make that come up. The idea that the teacher relationship is just like a hug and a flower and a kiss, this is nonsense. The teacher is there to push you, and to force you to go into that group and to face fears and to overcome things, but just enough so you don’t crack, because it’s very easy to crack if you go too far. So you’ve got, the teacher is difficult, the group is your playground, but you can always rely on the teacher at the end of the day no matter what when everything falls apart. When everything’s doomed; you failed or you feel like you failed the rhythm and everyone hates you and caused all kinds of trouble, you know at the end of the day, really know, that if you went down and said, “I need you,” that the teacher is, “you got it, come on.” Right, “I’m here for you, you got it,” because that’s really…The teacher is the one that’s going say, “no matter what happens, I’m here.” The practitioners are not necessarily like that because they’re also going through rhythms, and the outside world, forget it. The minute you become somebody different, the agendas gone, you’re out.

That’s the trouble, where people find relationships in the outside world deteriorate quickly, because they realized they’re not founded on anything authentic. They’re founded on agenda-based ego-selfing conditions, so they’ll break easy and they fall apart easy and sometimes we just go back to them because of unconscious addictions to pain and all kinds of weird things. They’re not healthy, and so we figure that out over time, through the path and we realize the value of the group and the value of the teacher there because no matter how screwed up you are, or you feel you are, the teacher is always going to be there and the group is always going to be a place of work. A place where you can get some good movement and good attainment in. Those are the three sections and the good way to look at the three levels of the playing fields as you call them.

Ginger: In that explanation, what I can hear is that when we’re working with the group and the teacher especially, we have a place where we can practice stepping into authenticity and if we screw up, there’s some support, but especially working with a mentor or a teacher, because we don’t even know what authenticity is, because of this ego-selfing state that we’re constantly in. We don’t even know truth, we don’t know who we are so when we push this self, this small self, toward the teacher we get feedback, and we always get feedback from everybody in the world or in the group, but when we push it towards the teacher especially, the feedback is on point.

Daishi: That’s a huge point you made. The giant point is that you’re not sure what it is authenticity is yet because you haven’t experienced it. It’s sort of like the analogy we make for ice cream. If you’ve never tried it, I can talk about it all day, tell you the chemical compounds that make it up, we can describe things like it, but you’re still never going to have experienced it. So, in this authentic state you’re saying I’m not sure what it’s like to be agenda-less. “What is impartiality? I don’t even know what that’s like.” So the point is you have somebody at least you can sit down with and say, “Hey, I’m going try this. Is this good? I’m going let go to ‘X’ extent,” and you know that the teachers going say, “That’s nice, come a little farther, come a little farther. Don’t worry about it, you can bleed on me, you can cause some trouble, and I might even make a mess too for you to kind of work with.” You may build up some blocks, I dump them down. You may build some blocks and I show you new ways to build them. You may build some blocks and I build them higher. So there’s all kinds of ways the teacher works with the practitioner that the group can’t. There’s things you can get away with the teacher that you can’t get away with the group. So there’s a little bit of movement in the group, there’s a lot more movement with the teacher, but both are essential.

One is like where you’re getting instruction, the other is where you’re trying it out. And you’re safe with getting instruction, and you’re safe with this one space, but you’re not quite as safe in the other space. And then the final space in the outside world you’re not safe at all because nobody’s forgiven there. You know, you make mistakes you pay for them, and everything is built on the dual mind so it’s tit for tat, right? You did this, you get this back. There’s no forgiveness. We hold everybody to a standard higher than we hold ourselves in that outside world and that’s a shame, but that’s how it is. It’s a place of learning. So, you’re right, those elements have to be there. You know, I know it’s been done in the past that people have gone off on their own and reached this condition of stream, love or compassion, and connection and clarity, but most of the time it’s done in a setting where you have this support system. Otherwise it can be a dark place, you can also go very nihilistic. You can have one without the other, you can have a big heart with a crazy, ranting mind. You can have a clean, clear, crystalline mind space but with no life, it’s just dead Zen. You’re just sort of clean but there’s no living going on. You’re not chasing butterflies, you’re just staring off waiting to die. So those two spaces need to come together and for that you need to have the right kind of working environment. It’s a good point.

Ginger: And speaking of having a great working environment; as we wrap up I just want to talk about the website quickly because it’s open now and new practitioners are joining every day and these kinds of conversations are already happening, talking about family and talking about interacting with outsiders and with each other, and since Drukama.com is available, is there anything you want to tell us about the site right now, new developments?

Daishi:  Well, we’ve taken a vacation, well deserved. It took a year of the team’s work and effort to put everything together and there’s so much content that’s not up yet that will be up, now that we’re coming off of vacation, in the next week or so, that there’s all kinds of new fascinating material; supportive material, teaching material that has been readied and is going to start to become live and available to the practitioners there. But it’s great to see that you’ve got dozens and dozens of new people coming together which will inevitably make that foundation stronger because the more people that get the same kind of mindset to become clearer and cleaner and more authentic within themselves and truer to themselves in each other, the easier it is for people to get there. It’s sort of like one person pushing a boulder up the mountain is impossible but if you get a thousand people it’s really easy, you all get together and pull and push and you’re done. Same thing is true with the path. Our intention, if it’s to become evolved and really understand ourselves and be connected truly in a new kind of world, we got to make this kind of singularity happen now. If we can make this happen, we can radically shift the world where it is now and go into a completely different way of living. If we don’t seize this opportunity right now and come together and have all of our aspiration pointed in the same direction, we can lose that chance and that opportunity.

And we’re on a precipice right now for it. People all over the place are looking for ways of getting rid of the transient nature of selfing, of just the blah ego-ness, it’s just becoming old. It’s an old hat, you know, “How do I look on this social media or that social media,” or, “What am I eating today?” and sharing all of my nonsense. We’ve just played it out. It’s all like me-isms, it’s done. It’s sort of like everybody’s done everything that’s needed to be done now, we’ve shown off as much as we can, and there isn’t that much difference between you and me. I might be better at driving a car and you might be better at drawing. Who cares? We’re still experiencing things. We need to get beyond the me-isms and move into a whole new paradigm, and that happens when we continually add and build, and that foundation at the site is building fast. It will build incredibly fast from February on. It’s going to be a big leap at that time because we’re reaching a much bigger audience, but become a part of it. Become part of our family whether you’re local or far away, be with us on this journey because we’re all looking for the same thing and that’s to become evolved in a whole new radical way within. I hope to see you guys, anyone listening to this, there at the site as I come back this month and all the great beautiful teachers there that have many beautiful things to share. I invite everyone to enjoy themselves there and come and be part of this change.

Ginger: Thank you so much for joining us today Daishi. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you and if anyone has questions or comments about this show you can email us at radio@drukama.com, that’s radio@drukama.com. Thank you everyone for joining us today and we look forward to seeing you next time.