Drukama RadioTM Episode 45 – The Secret of Secrets

This week Daishi and Ginger discuss how we can go beyond the basics of the Path, moving from blissful meditative states into intentional creation of reality at the root level through the practice of Samyama, or Unsurpassed Absorption. What is Samyama, and what are the prerequisites necessary to perform it? How can it be used for the manifestation of reality? Why is developing wisdom and compassion an important part of this process?

The Secret of Secrets - Samyama - Drukama Radio™ Ep 45

Please email all questions and comments to radio@drukama.com

Listen to Episode 45

Drukama RadioTM is Available On

Drukama Radio Spiritual Teachings PodcastDrukama Radio Spiritual Teachings PodcastDrukama Radio Spiritual Teachings PodcastDrukama Radio Spiritual Teachings Podcast

Episode 45 Extract

The Secret of Secrets

“…It’s not just sitting in meditation for hours and sort of going, “What am I doing here? It’s blissful, it’s fun, it’s exciting but I’m not sure anything has really been accomplished. I’m just sitting in an emptiness or I’m sitting locked on an object, contemplating it to a certain extent or watching my thoughts or my breath or something like this.” Yes, this will help you become more focused and lose some habitual tendencies and become a steady thinker and not react as much. Those are beautiful things and every human being should enjoy those side effects, but there is a continuation there that must be understood and put in play, otherwise we only have half the Path.”

~ Daishi Nagiyah

Full Transcript of This Episode

Ginger: Hello everyone and welcome to Drukama Radio. My name is Ginger and I’ll be your co-host today. We’re very fortunate to have Daishi join us today. We’re going to talk about the “Secret of Secrets”. Daishi, before we get started, how are you today?

Daishi: I’m doing great Ginger, thanks for being here. I’m excited to talk to you about this today – let’s get to it.

Ginger: So to introduce this topic which might feel a little bit unfamiliar to people, can you just give us some kind of frame of reference as a starting point about “Secret of Secrets”?

Daishi: Absolutely. When I say the “Secret of Secrets”, I think we’re discussing something that’s important to the path of spiritual awakening and I see two sides to the path. One side is the corrective nature of getting out of habitual selfing tendencies, the stuff that causes us to create suffering and delusion, egoic reactions and so on. This is sort of the foundation. Every spiritual aspirant needs to go through this process of foundation building or platform building where they get to a certain state that they’re able to recognize that noise that separates them from their essential nature. On the other side of that is the “Secret of Secrets” or so we’re calling it, which is the unknown applications of the deepened states of meditative absorption that can be applied to change the way that we perceive the macrocosmic reality, the reality out there and that’s something that’s not talked about very often, if at all. So I want to discuss it a little bit with you today.

Ginger: This sounds like a topic we could run really deeply with. So, can you help us understand how a concept like this might be beneficial for a practitioner just starting out, and also how it might be beneficial for a practitioner who is more advanced?

Daishi: Good point, let’s start at the basics because this is something that can be overwhelming or at least seem overwhelming to a basic practitioner. So let’s break this down into two kinds of categories. First we’ll start with the basic practitioner and we’ll go from there.

So when we say Samyama or Unsurpassed Absorption, we’re talking about what we’re actually doing within our blissful Samadhi states, where meditative absorption stays. So this takes into consideration that the practitioner has already learned how to sit, how to breathe, how to sense withdraw, how to become single-pointed, enter a meditative state and then finally merge with the object of contemplation. It’s a pretty lofty position to be in for any meditator. But we teach you how to get there relatively quickly. So that’s the beginner side. The beginner side is basically, “What do I do when I get into that blissful or peaceful – at least – state of meditative absorption, and what’s the most aggressive way of ridding myself of the obscurations that create the illusory identity attachment and the suffering that goes along with it?” So that’s the beginner side.

For a more advanced practitioner, someone who has already achieved this state, this unsurpassed absorption is the process of how we bring an intention into that peaceful or joyful meditative absorption. So, why is that important? Because it really depends on where you’re taking the path and this is an idea, a concept, a teaching that has been largely lost over the generations. I say – pretty much purposefully, it was lost with an objective in mind. It was stolen, I like to say, but we’re going to revive it and we’re going to teach it back to the public, so that they can utilize it to craft and create the kind of reality they’d like to experience.

So in the advanced explanation of this, the Unsurpassed Absorption is the process and we teach it step by step by step of what to do once you’ve achieved this state of standard absorption which sometimes is called Samadhi or sometimes it’s called Dhyana, Dhyana being the meditative side and Samadhi being the result of the union of the object that you’re contemplating. And so, I’m going to break that down just a little bit and then let you ask more questions.

If I’m sitting in my meditation there has to be some object or idea or concept, however subtle or gross that may be, that I focus on, that I hold myself to, that I want to merge with or get to a mystical marriage with, for lack of a better word. That could be an outside object, it could be a cloud, the sky, it could be a candle, it could be a book, it could be a table, it could be just the vastness of the perception I see through my eyes, it could be something I hear, something I touch, smell or taste etc, etc, etc. So once I have the object of contemplation externally and I focus on that object using the limbs or the steps of yoga, I eventually learn how to merge with it and so merging means that the perceiver using the perceiving tool, merges with the perceived. So there are always three things there. There’s me or whatever constitutes me, the essential nature or the perceptive awareness, then the process of seeing, in this case where “perceiving” is a better word and then the thing I’m perceiving. So there are three things there.

When I get into a deep state of meditative absorption, I’ll unite – when I say “I” – awareness will unite with one of those things. It will either be with the perceived object, it will be with the process of perceiving or it will be with the perceiver, me. Now what to do once that occurs? So to take that further is the process called Unsurpassed Absorption, is the most advanced application in the spiritual process and it’s been largely lost, forgotten or not understood. We don’t see a lot of people discussing this because this goes into an area that isn’t readily discussed in any of the ancient scriptures or by any of the teachers today. But the idea is that once I adjust and become familiar with that state of absorption, whether it’s with the perceived object, the perceiving process or the perceiver myself, I can then awaken into an intention or aspiration of some concept or idea to perform there, with the perceived object, the perceiving, or the perceiver. So this is the ultimate or the king, the summit or the supreme aspect of the meditative path, because this is truly where all of the magic happens. This is where I can awaken to cause change within myself or within the world around me. This is the pinnacle of what we aim to reach at Drukama and I’m hoping that whether practitioners learn it from us or go out and teach it in other areas, that everybody on earth can learn it at some point or another because it really harnesses the power that we have as co-creators within ourselves, the divine nature that we have within, and that ability to use that divine nature to cause change in our world and the worlds around us.

So that is how I look at the “Secret of Secrets”. Understanding how to get there and then what to do when you’re there is very important because right now meditation has become something that people look at and say, “Well it will help you become more aware at work, you know you’ll do better with your partner, you’ll perform various tasks better.” These are side-effects of meditation. This is not the point of meditation. The point of meditation is to understand the errors we make with the connection to the vehicle, the self and then to remove the attachments we have to self that cuts off delusion and suffering and ignorance. That is the platform by which we jump into this higher Secret of Secrets. It’s just the basic fundamental place we get to, that then we become an adept and put into motion, the magical aspects of the path and we’re able to utilize them because we’ve established that firm platform, a firm foundation.

So what happens after that foundation, as I said earlier, has been largely lost. No one really understands so most people just get to that area of absorption and sit there. So they say well I had a great meditation I was in a voidless, spaceless, emptiness and I hung out there for a while. Not really understanding what to do or what the process is from that point further they just kind of keep going back to that state. So we call it the Samadhi returner, they just go back to a kind of a blissful warm state in their meditations and then go back to their selfing and their lives and then they go back into their meditation. Of course over time this will certainly rid yourself of karmic hindrances, the seeds of the habitual tendencies will be eradicated over time, but there’s a much more intense powerful tool here that’s been missed and that’s largely because the Shamanistic Community, the Priest Class, what’s called the Daoist Wizards, and so on and so forth, all of these generations of Knowledge-Holders were wiped out and the knowledge itself was wiped out methodically, generation after generation after generation until we end up with what we have today, which is a weak human being that simply goes to work and makes money and dies. This cycle continues over and over again and no one really understands the power that they have within themselves because they haven’t been introduced to these concepts and ideas, but this will change and we’re going to help change it as much as we can by talking about communicating how this state arrives and what you can do in it.

Ginger: So one thing you touched upon was causing change, and I know that’s near and dear to a lot of our hearts, listeners as well as the practitioners who are already part of this school and I think it’s interesting to ask this question, “Where are we going?”

And do we also want to refine somehow this “where are we going” and what we want when we get into this process and create this change?

Daishi: Absolutely. It’s absolutely important and asking questions like that is vital because we want to understand, “What’s the point here? What are we doing? Where are we going with this? Why are we going there, and is it worth it?” These are really important questions and they’re important for us to contemplate. More importantly is for us to go through this and find these places ourselves through direct experience and not from the voice of someone else.

So I may be screaming and shouting about getting into this state of unsurpassed absorption and meditative absorption because you can cause principal changes in the way that you create the reality you perceive, but it isn’t until you experience it that it really has any value. Because when I say it, it doesn’t mean anything. It might be me pointing to a mountain I want you to climb because it’s an amazing view at the top, but it’s not until you get there that you truly understand how amazing that view is. You have to see it for yourself. So let me predicate this by saying – each person has to be free to go about this and experience it, that’s the most important thing. And whoever is telling you anything, me or anyone else, freedom is the key and every human being on earth needs to have ultimate freedom, and that freedom comes when we understand that we have options, that we have infinite options that we can use it anytime and if we don’t know that were trapped in some box. We’re isolated in the structure of creation in a way that doesn’t give us much freedom at all if any.

So this concept, this unsurpassed absorption is the process by which we gain our freedom back. Some people, and you see this today, this is unfortunate, but there’s kind of a doctrine that’s gone around in all the religions that we’re supposed to succumb to the pressures of nature. That the universal consciousness is beating us down until we finally give way to it. We just give up to it and we surrender to it and that’s not a powerful message, that’s a message of slavery. Essentially the universal consciousness, if that were the case, if that were the relationship is essentially saying, “I’m going to continually beat you until you give up to me.” And really, if that were the purpose of our lives, if that were the purpose of creation, it could do that right out of the gate. It doesn’t need to drag us through this entire countless rebirth process and beat us again and again. It can just dominate us into submission immediately because it’s so large and so overwhelming. It created us. So, in that regard if that was its intention and aspiration, it would have happened in one second. We would all yield to it and just go about our existence being its slave or its footstool. But for some reason we continue on and on and it doesn’t do that, so there’s got to be another motive here, and that motive is for us to grow, like it, to become like it. To take its properties and attributes slowly, step by step and become more and more similar to it over time.

So it’s really asking us, “Take my attributes and become like me.” “Learn what I’m about.” “Understand me and grow into those attributes.” And so if it is in fact the creating force in the entire macrocosmic and microcosmic universe that’s infinite, then we have to learn how to be the creating force within the macrocosmic and microcosmic realms. And that structure has to be ours to play with as well. It can only be one or the other.

I’m telling you if you investigate, I’m sure you’ll find that it’s not about us just yielding and falling down before The One Unique and Unified and saying, “Okay, I’m just gonna serve you as a slave and you know you’ll go on being the landlord”. It’s actually asking us to become empowered, to remember how much power we actually have. We have the seed of it within us and to take that seed and germinate it and bring our power back and create the kind of reality we want to see. The one thing you can see for sure that points to that is that we cannot make change in this world from the branch level, from the level of the reality. We can’t physically do anything here, we can feel and think and that somehow outside of this reality, it’s something that we can’t point to, it’s something that doesn’t exist in this reality. We can’t say, “Well do you see that feeling?”. No. Can you see that thought? Absolutely not. So where does that reşide? On some subtle layer of reality. So those are the layers of reality that caused some kind of change, at least a little bit. So once we see that, “Okay, if I can go outside of this branch level of creation and rise up in these subtle planes of reality, then I can enact change, real change, that goes beyond the body-brain vehicle.” It goes beyond thought, goes beyond the dualistic or binary thought of the dualistic or binary emotions that see left and right, up and down and here and there.

So as we procure the ability to go beyond into subtler realms of reality, we get closer to the causal plane or we get closer to the level of the root, and when we get closer and closer to the level of the root, we can start to enact change that isn’t based in creating it here. It’s based in creating it where the creation actually happens, and as we learn in that process we can then begin to play with the dreamlike reality that we see around us and reality as we can tell is inherently empty. We know it’s empty, science has verified this. That all things we see are inherently almost all empty, there’s just space. So if that’s the case, we know our tactile senses are built to deceive us. I mean they help us manoeuvre in this realm but they only show us a sliver of what’s really happening. So if that’s the case there’s a whole mysterious thing happening behind all of the tactile senses.

As we go up in these subtle planes of reality, we start to realize there’s a lot going on there, there’s a whole mysterious infinite play going on and we need to learn about that. The good news is it’s not difficult, it’s just that we need the instructions. Once we understand, “How can I do it? What’s the way to do it?” then each person could begin to play in their own way and reality stops being a slave camp that you come back to over and over again, that seems pointless. I just work and work and work and die. It doesn’t seem like this is a great purpose of life, and even if I find something that I enjoy or a hobby, I don’t take it with me, it’s temporal. I can enjoy it for a moment but it’s gone when I die, I don’t bring it with me and I’m not sure what happens. I may come back here and start all over. That doesn’t seem very good, so what’s the point of this? The point is to learn what the real substance, the real empowerment of our essential nature is and that’s understanding number one, who we are by who we’re not, and number two, the process by which we can invoke real change. If enough human beings take that power back we can make this world a wholly beautiful place with real positive change. But it won’t happen until that concept, those ideas are put into action by the people themselves, and nothing else will suffice, that’s the only way it will happen.

Ginger: So Daishi, in a real world application, how does this play in with an idea like manifestation that we’ve heard so much about in the last 10 or 15 years?

Daishi: Great point. Manifestation has come about because inherently each soul knows that there’s some power that they have that they’re not getting access to. That’s the trouble that’s happening – we can see it everywhere. Human beings are frustrated because somehow they know – inherently within themselves they have all this power, they just don’t know how to access it. So they come up with other ways of doing this, that kind of makes sense to the general public like, “Well if we just think about it hard enough, if we just make enough pictures on a wall about it, you know, it will eventually manifest itself and we can start to create things that we want to see happen around us for the sake of our benefit and the benefit of the ones we love.“ And this is beautiful because it’s the aspiration that every human feels, that “I’m more than this, I’m more than this. I shouldn’t have to live like this, I shouldn’t have to go through this nightmare – rhythms and problems and delusions and confusion and ignorance and suffering – this is not right.“ So inherently the essential nature understands, “I’m not this, I’m not like this, I have more power than this.” And it’s true! It’s just that the instructions are lost. It’s like somebody lost the instruction manual. It’s like, how do we get this access?

So we come up with ideas, maybe we’ll try this and maybe we’ll try that. And so these ideas like The Secret came about, you know, if you just think about it enough, but we’re going past thought here in that regard. What we’re doing is we’re trying to get into a state where we understand, where language and words and thinking in that regard are gone, the dualistic mind has no play here. It doesn’t really need to be around, it just serves the purpose of making sandwiches and driving to work. The point is we need to go beyond that and that isn’t so mystical or metaphysical as it sounds. It’s really just learning how to let go of the things that are causing the noise, that hide us from that power. So step by step we teach this obviously, we walk you through from just learning how to sit down, to the right breathing, right sense withdrawal, learning how to focus in the easiest way possible and learning how to create an absorption state. Then going on beyond that to what we call Unsurpassed Absorption, actually playing with this.

In the subtle realms that I referred to earlier, we don’t have dialogue like we do in our mind. We don’t think about, “Well I want a sandwich. I’m not sure what kind. Maybe that kind of bread or this kind of peanut butter.” We don’t think like that. All that’s required in the upper realms where the upper force is, is simply uniting or not uniting based on attributes. In other words, when I merge with something, I become it or at least I adopt it’s attributes and I can also give it mine, to say it in a kind of simplified way. There isn’t much more than this, when I bring an intention into that wedding, when I bring an intention into that unification, I then bring some kind of change to the object that I was contemplating. That could be me, it can be the object or it can be the actual process of it. So these are things that have to be learned as we go into these states, but the idea is – when I have an intention there and I bring it forward, I can make change, because at that subtle level of reality there isn’t the clunkiness of the binary mind, there’s no clunkiness of the duality. It’s simply just merging and bringing intentions, kinds of like aspirations and desires back and forth, in and out of various kinds of perceptions or states, where I see the object of contemplation and I merge with it with some kind of aspiration and therefore the object adopts my aspiration and I adopt it’s qualities as well.

Through these marriages, these mergings all kinds of things change, because now there isn’t this kind of warring. Any time there’s distance between two things, there’s a field, a space between two things, is because the two things are not alike. It’s because they don’t have any attributes that are alike, but if they have attributes that are alike, they come together. When we cause this merging to happen, that’s where fundamental change starts to occur.

Now, speaking about this is really difficult, doing it is not, speaking about it is difficult. Because we don’t have words that describe this kind of union and what happens in these kinds of subtle planes of reality, but the idea is – we can learn how to do it, but it’s tough to talk about it, the actual experience of it, you have to do that for yourself. But, let’s just take for example the idea of The Secret, where – and I don’t know much about this, I’m certainly not an expert on it – but I know it’s about manifesting reality by overthinking of something. We don’t go in that direction, we go past the mental, lower binary mind realm and go into a subtler realm. There, through absorption we can bring intention into the objects that we contemplate and that creates the change. This happens through various kinds of objects, depending on what we want to do, how we want to make change and these have to be learned a little bit, because it’s a new language, it’s a new system, it’s a new process, but as we start to approach this and we start to understand it, it’s really natural and organic. It becomes something where we say – yes of course this makes sense, of course I understand that these particular kinds of objects manifest in a certain way down below, down in the realm called physical density. It is an organic experience because we’re all used to it inherently within our essential nature.

But this goes against the idea that we’re to dissolve back into the One. This is completely different, because now we’re taking action. In the old, old school, in the old, old mystical traditions everybody was about action, about making change and becoming powerful. It wasn’t about just succumbing, putting your head down and dissolving, or being overtaken. Every single soul, every single experiencer, every single human being in the vessel of the body is basically a desire. A desire to breathe, a desire to live, a desire to eat, a desire to love, a desire to contemplate and experience. It’s just raw desire manifesting itself. How we use that desire in the subtler planes affects how our life is shown to us in the reality down below. We just have to learn again, “How do I get there? And once I’m there what can I do?”

And that’s the “Secret of Secrets”, it’s not just sitting in meditation for hours and sort of going, “What am I doing here? It’s blissful, it’s fun, it’s exciting but I’m not sure anything has really been accomplished. I’m just sitting in an emptiness or I’m sitting locked on an object, contemplating it to a certain extent or watching my thoughts or my breath or something like this.” Yes, this will help you become more focused and lose some habitual tendencies and become a steady thinker and not react as much. Those are beautiful things and every human being should enjoy those side effects, but there is a continuation there that must be understood and put in play, otherwise we only have half the path. Now it’s time that we introduce that deeper empowering process to everyone and that’s the “Secret of Secrets”, that’s where we’re going with our curriculum, and I hope it spreads like wildfire because I want everybody on Earth to have this freedom.

Every single person without fail, everyone should have this freedom. We should be creators and we should be creative and we should have desire but just point it in the right way. Rather than pointing our desire in a foolish way, externally trying to find some kind of remedy to our illness, out there somewhere. It’s never going to happen. We can go up and use the desire to make change on the subtle realm and then see it manifest in front of us on the physical. That really is the secret and beyond that, the purpose of creation shouldn’t be anything more than this.

Because otherwise we’re looking at what I spoke about earlier, which is a slave condition. We’re just here, get over it, the universal consciousness is going to beat you up and you’re just going to have to succumb to that. No, no, no – that’s not the way it was intended and no culture, or tradition in history ever thought that way until recently. Somehow or another when we went through this dark age, some kind of infiltration happened where we were robbed of that power and we were taught, “Just sit back, be quiet and succumb. If you do that you won’t be a sinner anymore and you will be allowed into heaven again, otherwise straight to hell with you.” This is ridiculous and this is a way to control and it’s a way to rob people of their freedom and their power and it’s not right. It’s time to introduce the empowerment again and that’s what this is.

Ginger: The idea of being a co-creator, of having this freedom is really attractive. But I’ve also heard you talk a lot about the development of wisdom and compassion within the practitioner. Can you tell us how that ties in, just as we wrap up today?

Daishi: Absolutely, it’s a really critical part of this and again I’m going to go back to two stages. When I’m building a foundation, as I’m entering this kind of process, I have to understand that I have a veil over me to a certain extent. I’ve become attached to a thing that’s not real. I’ve become attached to the idea of a self and if we really look at what a self is, it doesn’t exist on it’s own. It’s a conglomeration of experiences, and an identity, an intellect, an ego boundary, all of these things.

The mental aggregates all come together to form the self, the memory of what I did before and how it’s analyzed and the chatter in the mind. This makes up who we think we are, but this is not us at all, this is just a clothing we’re wearing. We’ve been duped into believing the clothing is us and it’s not. And each time we come back into this reality we put on another piece of clothing and we get wrapped up in that clothing, and so the first part of the process is to make movement away from that. We want to merge together two important aspects and the names for these two aspects are wide. There’s a myriad of varied titles that they’ve put on these – wisdom and compassion and all kinds of things. But really there’s a tenderness, there’s a lovingness, there’s a consideration, there’s a compassion, there’s a connection to others and myself that has to be cultivated, and that happens along the way.

And through that, wisdom arises, as I let go of the thing I’m not and I become clear about what I am, there’s a wisdom that comes with that and as this wisdom is generated I start to understand. “I get it now, I understand that I don’t need to invest in the greediness and the selfishness, and I don’t have any lack and so on and so forth. This has all been delusional thinking.” When that starts to go away, this wisdom is generated naturally, because it’s what the stuff is made of and the compassion and loving kindness and connection and forgiveness and patience all comes out as well. And then these two come together and marry each other in a perfect luminous clarity.

That is the kind of realization side of the path that goes hand in hand with learning the other part, they go together. As I become clearer, more luminous, I become radiant in my love and in my wisdom and the way that I perceive, by getting away from the thing that covers me up with ignorance and delusion and suffering. I then become clearer and I get to see the 30 000 foot view of the project, the process. Now as I begin to learn how I can modify and change, I do it with the right intention, I do it with the right aspiration. I do it with the right knowledge, wisdom and understanding. That’s vital.

And there’s a reason why that change piece is at the furthest end of the process, because you really want to be in that state before you get a hold of the weapon of change, because it can be used for bad things, it can be used in a negative way, in a selfish way, I should say. We see selfish as negative because it’s not inclusive. As I build and grow I become more inclusive, more caring, passionate, understanding. I get more wisdom and all these things come together. Then the creative piece comes to me and when I start to get that creative piece I no longer need it in the selfish, ignorant and delusional ways I would’ve needed it when I was stuck in the self. Now I could potentially use it to create harmony and peace and love and kindness and compassion and wisdom and clarity and radiance and all these things.

And so there’s a first part of it, where I’m letting go and moving away from what I’m not and there’s a second part of it, where I’m gaining wisdom and compassion and access to modification and moving back into the vehicle so I can be more effective. I can become a more complete and effective human being while I’m here.

Ginger: This really wraps things up in a really clear and sort of a heartwarming way that it helps me understand where we’re going, and with that I’d also like to ask – because we’ve opened the school now for registration – what’s happening with Drukama.com, what’s going on with the school right now?

Daishi: We’ve been working so hard to create a curriculum that actually walks step by step, day by day, week by week through this process so that anybody who’s interested in gaining these kinds of abilities, this kind of insight, this kind of connection and this kind of power can come even if they don’t have any history in the spiritual arena. They can walk in and say, “I don’t know what I’m doing at all – help me”. We walk from day one to the end and that curriculum has taken a lot of time. It’s about to become live and be available to people so that they can access it.

Plus all the teachers and tutors that are at the school itself to help support, answer questions and then all the supplemental and bonus materials that we have fun with are there in the school as well. We’ve created a place where somebody can come from the safety and comfort of their own home and learn this process and inevitably get close with the group that’s an absolute stellar bunch of human beings. Really amazing people and it’s an honor to be among them all. There’s an enormous opportunity for anyone who wants to learn this process and study with like-minded people to take advantage of it now and as we continue to add fantastic content in the future.

Ginger: And I’ll attest to the power of this group. It’s just amazing because a lot of them have been through parts of this process already and it shows in their interactions. Just how they are in their lives and who they are as human beings is a testament to the Drukama method – so thank you so much for allowing us a peek into your wisdom with that.

Daishi: You are most welcome and you’re right. There are many people who have made galactic changes in who they are from the time they started till now and they’re going to make more changes, dramatic changes in the near future as well and continue to until they manifest whatever they wish in life.

Ginger: So with that we’re going to wrap up the show for today. Thank you so much for joining us Daishi. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you.

Daishi: Thanks for having me, I love this and I look forward to doing another one of these with you real soon.

Ginger: For our listeners, if you have any questions or comments about the show, you can email us at radio@drukama.com. You can also find us in all the usual places on social media – just search for Drukama Teachings. The transcript for this show is also available on Drukama.com. Thanks again for joining us for today’s show and we really look forward to seeing you next time.