Drukama RadioTM Episode 25 – The Spiritual Bodies
Today Daishi speaks with Lisa on the subject of the spiritual bodies. What are the spiritual bodies and how are they known across the various spiritual traditions? How do we gain access to them, and why is that important?
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Episode 25 Extract
The Spiritual Bodies
“The experiences we have (in the subtle bodies) not only cleanse us from the fear based attachments to the physical body…but also allow us to gain insight and access to Wisdom that is beyond the simple binary mind.
And that is important because it allows us to see the body/brain for what it ‘really’ is and eradicate the ignorance that all we are is a flesh and bone, flesh and blood, live ‘once’ and die, chance experiential body; it allows us to see that we are much more than that, that our consciousness is much grander than that, much more amazing than that and it gives us the ability to enhance and enjoy our lives ‘here’.”
~ Daishi Nagiyah
Drukama™ podcast extract – EP25
Full Transcript of This Episode
Lisa: Hello everyone, welcome back for another episode of Drukama Radio. My name is Lisa and I am your cohost for today’s show. Just a small reminder before we get started – we are switching to a different iTunes account, so all episodes will be migrated over to the new account of the same name – Drukama Radio. Just know that everyone subscribed to iTunes or using a podcast app that uses iTunes will need to resubscribe to our new Drukama Radio account. You can, however, always find us on PodOmatic.
We are very grateful to have Daishi here to explore a very interesting topic: The Spiritual Bodies. Welcome Daishi, how are you today?
Daishi: I am doing great. Let’s jump into it.
Lisa: Ok. First question. What are the spiritual bodies and are they referenced in all religions? If so, could you give some examples?
Daishi: The spiritual bodies are basically layers. So if we look at it like the Russian dolls, which I know that you know about as well – they sit within each other. They have, like an onion, layers around them. They are the same doll, they just kind of get smaller and they all wrap around each other, and you got these layers and layers that go basically inward – from the out, in. And that is how the spiritual bodies are to us as well, they kind of go from the outside, the physical manifestation, and then inward into more subtle bodies.
And they are defined in different traditions in different ways. Sometimes they are talked about as five spiritual bodies, sometimes they talk about three spiritual bodies, it really depends on the culture and tradition. If you are asking for an example, I would say that in the Christian tradition you could look at it as the trinity – so the Son, the Mother and the Father, what they call the Son, the Holy Spirit – they have eliminated mom there – and the Holy Father, or the Kingdom of the Father. These are three bodies essentially.
And, in the Tibetan tradition you have the three Kayas, sometimes five Kayas, but Kaya is basically another word for a body. And you have the Nirmanakaya, the Sambhogakaya and the Dharmakaya, the Buddhakaya. And then in the Yogic tradition you have the Koshas, so, Manomaya Kosha, and there is five of those, Pranamaya Kosha, etc, so they go from the physical body to the pranic body, to the enjoyment body, or what they call the mental body, and then the knowledge or wisdom body and finally the bliss body.
So, really, in each culture they have terms for these, all the way back to Khemet and Egypt. And these bodies were different kind of subtle layers of reality, not so much that they were physical replications of the physiological body, but that the consciousness or awareness becomes perceptive on more subtle layers of reality as it enters into these more subtle bodies, and that is kind of the idea. It is very difficult to understand this concept unless you have gone into very deepened states of meditative concentration.
Lisa: Is there a hierarchy? In other words, does one have to gain access to one particular spiritual body before one can access the other spiritual bodies?
Daishi: Yeah, that is a great question. So yeah, in a way it is like a ladder, you have to kind of move through these bodies in order to get to a subsequent body. So if you are going from the physical body, for example, to what we call the mental body, you would have to necessarily go through the intermediary bodies of the pranic body or energy body, or sometimes referred to as the enjoyment body or the emotional body. And so, you do have to move through those layers, and what gets more interesting is that there may be subtler realms of that particular body.
So you may have many realms to the pranic body, there may be three or four, that subsequently can be experienced before entering into enjoyment body or emotional body, and so depending on how you break up the hierarchy or the system, the realms themselves, or the perception of subtler realms of reality, etc, it can be 33, it can be seen as 12, it can be seen as 7, it really just depends on the tradition and the culture.
Lisa: How does one gain access to the spiritual bodies? I mean, what is the process involved?
Daishi: That is the million dollar question. How do we get from the physical in and explore and investigate the subtler realms of reality? Because that is where we really get our knowledge. The reason why the subtle bodies are so important is because we have an inherent problem with our physiological body, and that is an issue of twofold problems: so one is the brain, it is a dual brain, it is a dualistic mind, it is a binary mind; and because of that, it cannot perceive things unless it is a 1 or 0. It is either good or bad, you know, on or off, up or down. That limits the way we perceive right out of the gate.
The second problem is that we have 5 senses, which we are already told by science, are incredibly limited in their bandwidth. So they do not see nearly what we should see in terms of the ultraviolet spectrum for example in vision, and the way that we hear the various certain tones in the hearing, in our sounds, in the soundwaves itself, the way that we can touch and feel, our sensitivity to vibration and energy, so on and so forth.
So, we know that around us is a multitude of waves and, you know, we can say there is an entire internet in our living room, and there are people talking on it, living on it, experiencing on it, but we cannot see it, we cannot hear it, we cannot feel it. But we know it is there. And the problem is that, well, how do we gain access to that level of perception? In order to do that we have to leave, or move away from, the physical body and enter into the subtler body. And this whole process is how we investigate reality beyond the limited physiological body.
And the process for doing that is learning how to unclench the oscillations, for lack of a better word, our brainwave frequency, the way that the brain is tightened around the consciousness, and learn how to relax that, learn how to bring that vibration down, and bring that brainwave down, while remaining aware and awake. Sounds much easier than it actually is, and this happens through the process of marrying two kinds of energies – one energy is the reduction energy, it is the conscious energy being reduced and the brainwave oscillations. In other words, we are relaxing the mind while the conscious awareness stays awake – it does not turn off, drift off or shut down – and the other energy is the life force energy within the body that heightens and helps create more wakeful states in the consciousness so that life force energy is driven upward. That is increased, and the physiological brainwave energy is decreased.
So, as weird as that sounds, one is relaxing and reducing, and the other is heightening and being excited, and as both of these continue, we experience subtler realms or subtler bodies, until eventually these two forces absolutely marry each other and create the ultimate body – which we call the final body, the liberating body. We are talking about a complex thing here that takes time to learn and process, but if we are going to just try to do this in two minutes, the idea is we are relaxing one portion and we are exciting another portion, and as one relaxes and one excites, eventually the heightened excitation and the lower relaxation actually unify. That is called the ultimate wedding or the ultimate marriage, that is the unification. And that is where ultimate Clear Light perception happens.
So, in between those stages, we have various bodies or various perceptions that become available to us that show us a more subtler experience of reality. And that is where we learn and gain knowledge and wisdom through direct experience. And we understand inherently, just by viewing it, the nature of reality more perfectly.
Lisa: Are there clear indicators, like after you access one body, before you gain access to another? Like are there clear indicators after you access the first body?
Daishi: It is a great question because how do we know? What happens? What is the experience like? Now, the one thing that we want to make sure we do is not discuss actual experiences, but I can help you understand the process a little better. And the reason why we do not really ever talk about spiritual experiences is because that canset a person up for failure. Because we do not want to put garbage information into a mind that cannot handle it, or does not know how to process it.
So there are two issues – one, it is difficult to explain to the dualistic mind a level of reality it cannot attain. So, in other words, the dualistic brain, the physiological brain, really does not have the capacity to understand these subtler realms of reality. The subtler realms of reality are experienced through what sometimes is referred to as a “higher mind”. And, you know, again, that can be really difficult because what you mean a higher mind, is there another brain up there? Is there a better brain up there or in there? Or what is happening there? Those things are difficult to discuss because the physiological brain we are using really does not grasp the idea of anything other than, as I said, zeros or ones.
But, what does happen is, after we have done enough preliminary practice and sharpened our instruments, because first – in all cultures, all traditions, in all religions or mystical foundations – there has to be a sharpening or a tuning or enhancement of the instruments we need. And that includes the ability to relax the mind, the ability to see through egoic and selfing thoughts and understand the mental aggregates, it is the ability to understand what the senses are and how they relate to the elements, and the centers themselves and so on, and gain access to those centers; have the ability to concentrate, have the ability to unify with what is being concentrated with, etc. So all of these, what seems to be very heavy and complicated, is really organic, but this process has to be done.
And it is agreed upon in every old sutra, every old tantra, that this process must be done. It is usually called the generation stage process, and that is where instruments are tuned, they are enhanced, they are sharpened. Once these instruments are tuned, enhanced and sharpened, and we are ready to go – in other words, the foundation is laid – we go from the generation, or foundational stages, we call them the preliminary stages, and in fact the word for it is Drukama. It is basically the way that we practice the preliminaries, into the actual experiential stages, where now we take those instruments and we use them to perform the various mystical processes. One of which is experiencing these realms of reality – that is called the completion or final stage, we call it the Nagama stage, so those two stages are typical in every ancient authentic tradition.
So first we sharpen, we prepare, we build a foundation, then we apply those so that we can sync into those realms of reality or those sheaths, or those bodies, etc. And the way you know that this is happening is because your direct experience drastically alters and changes the moment you enter into one of these bodies. And I will give you a basic example: you might be sitting after having done preliminary practice. You may be ready to sit and attain a lower brainwave frequency, opening the mind, relaxing the mind, and awareness is stabilized and still. Then through the use of inner energies, amplifying your oscillation through that life force energy, so that you go from the physical body, the physical sensation of the body, the physical senses themselves, the physical brain, and suddenly that vanishes almost in a snap, and you automatically pop into what seems to be some other kind of body, some other kind of perception. And in this new perception, what almost everyone will agree to as they experience it, is that this new level of perception feels more real than the physical perception. And that is because the physical perception is the most outer husk of the bodies themselves, so this is the most insulated husk. And as we remove those layers of insulation, it feels more real, more genuine, more authentic.
And so the moment we enter this higher body, this higher realm of reality, it feels – almost every practitioner unanimously – as if I know that perceptive reality, that body, is more real or feels or seems to be more genuine and real than my physical body. And as we continually climb that ladder, all the way to the end, the liberating body, for lack of a better word, it becomes more and more genuine, more and more pure, more and more refined. And, as we come back down that ladder to the physical body, it feels more gross, more dense and more artificial.
And, so the experiences we have, not only do they cleanse us of the attachments to the physical body, which is exactly what we want to do. It is not that we are trying to destroy the physical body, or destroy the ego, or destroy our personalities – none of that, we are just losing our attachments and fear grasping entanglements to them. It helps remove that but it also allows us to gain insight and access to wisdom that is beyond the simple binary mind, which is important because that allows us to see the body-brain for what it really is – a simple vehicle, it is a beautiful and a magnificent, wonderful, but it is a basic vehicle that is used to experience this reality, and the other vehicles are used to experience their subsequent realities. And that process is where, through just direct experience, we gain all kinds of insight knowledge. And knowledge is very important to eradicate the ignorance that all we are is a flesh and bone, flesh and blood, live once and die, chance experiential body. And it allows us to see that we are much more than that. That our consciousness is much grander than that, much more amazing than that. And it gives us the ability to enhance and enjoy our lives here. And that is really important.
Lisa: If you have accessed the bodies and you have access to these other realms, are there any other ancillary uses for accessing the spiritual bodies?
Daishi: There are other uses actually for accessing the bodies. The bodies happen to be coordinate with the elements as well, and the elements are the building block of everything we experience around us, they are actually how this world is formed and shaped.
So, as we access these ancillary bodies, we also learn about and directly experience the elemental energies themselves, and as we gain access to these elemental energies and we climb up that spiritual ladder, for lack of a better word, we can then begin to understand the formation and creation of this world. Why is that important? Because that is really where the idea of creation begins.
And so, as I always say, we are not here to just be passersby or observationists. We are not here to just watch life go by. That is not why we are here. We are here to learn how to be creators, or at least maybe co-creators with nature, co-creators with the Great Mother, co-creators with the reality around us and her laws, right? So as we learn about these laws and we experience the way that they work, we can begin to work within them. We can begin to work with them, and we can begin to shake the way reality forms around us in magical ways.
So, the real benefit here is that not only do I begin to understand the structure of creation, understand what kind of dream-like world I am in, but I also understand how it functions and works, and I can play in it much more effectively and efficiently, and that is really the beautiful thing about it – is that we do not have to just say life is what it is, it sucks and then you die. No, now you can say – I understand life is what it is, on a very subtle level, and I can tinker with it and toy with it and play with it and have fun with it; and you got to remember, back in the early traditions, for example in India, “Leela” means play. The whole idea was to play with reality, to enjoy reality, to have fun with reality, that is the concept – it is not just to get beaten up and, you know, claw your way out and then be huffing and puffing and say “My God, that was awful!” No, it is for us to rid suffering, and then begin to understand the structure of creation and its laws so we can play in it and enjoy it, and actually make life fun, and make what is happening right now very exciting and satisfying and enjoyable; rather than just hoping for salvation in the future at some point and being beaten over the head by a bunch of laws and of rules that we do not understand, and basically being enslaved to those laws and rules, and to see the world as a cruel place that mother forced on us.
And that is not what it is. It is for us to learn, and for us to co-create. And that is what the sheaths, or the bodies, or these realities allow us to do. And that is the beauty of it, is that there is a lot of beautiful playful things we can do once we understand ourselves a little bit better.
Lisa: This is all so amazing because you have laid everything out so simply. We have pre-requisites or preliminaries that we go through to lay a foundation, and then once we have laid the foundation we can access something that most of us never knew was possible. And it affects our lives, it is amazing.
Daishi: Beautifully said, that is perfect, that is exactly right. We are learning how the basic foundation works in order to implement change and control rather than slavery. We want to break the bonds of slavery that we feel underneath the pressure of the laws that we do not understand. Once we understand, then we can play within them.
And we can leave them if we want – we can leave, we can come back, we can play, we can do all sorts of things. But that is really what the Divine Parents are asking from us – they are asking us to understand, investigate and understand, with the right intention, how you operate, and how we operate on you, and we can basically work together to create and play.
And it is hyper important that that is learned by human beings, because right now we have discounted the body-brain entirely, and the way that we are brought up, and the way that we are taught in schools, and the way that we are led by example from our forefathers is to just understand life as a terrible thing that is awful to us and that we just have to get through it. I do not want to live like that, I do not choose to experience life like that, I do not accept that. I refuse to accept life being something where you have no choice and you are going to get beaten, and that is it. That is not right, that is not a loving Universe.
And, of course, you can make the argument – well the Universe is cruel and ugly – if we are going to play faith and belief, if that is how we are going to play, I would rather choose happy and playful than ugly and enslaving. So if it is going to be just choices, and that is all it really is, and none of it matters anyway, I will just choose the other side. I would rather choose the happy and peaceful and loving compassionate side. And let the people who want to believe in, you know, the negativity cruel and there is no good, believe that if they choose to. But I am telling you that you do not have to choose that. That just because everyone in the majority believes that to be the case, does not mean that it is true. It just means that it has been taught that way for so long that we refuse to look into a little deeper. But once we do, we are going to find some amazing things there that can lead to life changing experiences.
And, yes, it takes a little bit of work, a little bit of intention, it takes a little bit of changing the habits that we are into now – the way that we think, the way that we feel, the way that we act, the way that we are attached to those things, and pull away a little bit. But once we get away from it we realize – I can do anything, I can be anything, it is just a matter of me understanding and really working within the laws that are around me correctly. And once that happens, then I can choose to be compassionate and happy and blissful and joyful and peaceful and contented, and I do not have to say that I am under the weight of suffering and pains and all of these things. If we can get enough people to go in that direction, we can allow the world to change and become corrected. Because right now there are a lot of people in this world who do not have the ability to even start a path like this, their lives are so difficult and they are under such a burden that this is not even an option, and that is not right.
So we have to stand up and start making changes within ourselves, become clear and radiant in our perception, and understand people better, so that we can give them the freedom to be in the situation where they are able to get these kinds of opportunities. And it has to start somewhere.
So, it is a new age, it is a new time, and this time is here for human beings to start learning a new way of living, a new way of experiencing. And if we do not do that, and if we do not do that soon, the end is going to be bad. It is not going to be good. Because we cannot continue to live in a selfish environment where everything is run by greed, envy, jealousy, it is not going to be good for humanity that way. So we have to take it upon ourselves to make changes within first before we try to change things out there.
Lisa: Is access to the spiritual bodies possible for everyone?
It might seem like a silly question, but I know that in the place that I was in a few years ago, I might have listened to something like this and have little voices in my head telling me – oh, you know, you are so far down the list, there is no way this could apply to you.
Daishi: It is true, right. So we sabotage ourselves because of the habit energies that are created in the brain, and we sort of, you know, the way we grow up, the way that we are influenced, the way that society and family influences us, we are pre-programmed for failure a lot of times; we do not think we are good enough, we are not special enough to achieve these kinds of states or these kinds of attainments.
The truth is – every human being, equally, anybody, has all of this already within them. It is already all there. It is not like you are getting anything from outside of you, you do not need anything extra. Everything you have right in you, right now, is perfect. It is just that some direction needs to be provided, there are steps that need to be taken, and there is a process that most people need to go through. Once they go through that process it all comes together organically.
And you can see, like in your case, different kinds of energies that you never thought you would have felt, you felt. And you felt them quickly. And the reason that is, is because of the perfect impartiality with our Divine Parents, as I like to call them. They have made it so that every child on Earth has access to it. So do not think you are not ready for it or you cannot do this, or that it is beyond you – it is not true at all. Those voices are sabotaging you, just like they sabotage us in every other area of life. So, forget about that, it is nonsense, if you have a good structure and you have a good teacher you will always succeed no matter who you are.
Lisa: This just resonates so deeply for me. I know that joining the school has completely changed my life. Just a complete 180 and I am so grateful for the teachings because they are practical. You have laid out some very clear instructions, we practice them and the results are experienced firsthand, and it is like nothing I have ever experienced before. So, I would imagine that this would appeal to a lot of people, because reading a book or listening to a sermon – I mean I came from the Christian tradition – but other religious traditions, you know, I am not knocking them, but I always felt that there was something lacking – practical instructions, practical applications that would actually have an impact on my life. And, so, I am just blown away by all of this. Thank you.
Daishi: You are so welcome. You mention something so beautiful, that you came from the Christian tradition, and you know, I know that tradition very well as well. And there are beautiful, wonderful deep teachings there, I just think that the way that we are examining and opening up the scriptures themselves, we are not going deep enough to understand the underlying meanings. But I think in the Christian tradition, and as well as other traditions like it that we consider religious, there are absolutely breathtaking beautiful and wonderful teachings there that are tucked away and concealed a little bit. But once we open them up a little and really understand them from a higher perspective, we see that they are right there in front of our faces and they are really beneficial and life changing as well.
And so I want to make it clear – what I am helping you and other practitioners with is not my thing, it is not anything new, it is not something I have discovered or created, I did not do anything. I am just simply explaining an old, old tradition in a new way for us today. Because sometimes the way it was said a long time ago is difficult for us in today’s generation to grasp. We think new ways, we think differently, we have a different environment, so sometimes it helps to look at it from a different angle. But there is not anything new here, there is not anything revolutionary, I am not doing anything special, I am simply opening it up in a way that you can say – that makes more sense and I can apply that to my life every day.
The changes you have had in your life are unbelievable, and we have seen it happen with so many practitioners, it is a wonderful thing, it is absolutely beautiful. Once we get into the application side, things get unreal and unbelievable, magical and marvelous, and that is something that is saved for those who get through the foundation. And I hope to have a bunch of people and a bunch of our tutors and teachings helping people accomplish just that and seeing the changes in people’s lives is the biggest reward and the most amazing thing one can experience. So I appreciate you as well. So thank you for going through that journey and continuing to go through it.
Lisa: Well, thank you Daishi. Thank you so much for joining us today and sharing these nuggets of wisdom. I hope our listeners enjoyed this show and will join us at drukama.com. If you have any questions or comments about the show, the teachings, or the upcoming teachings sooner, please feel free to shoot as an email at email@example.com. We look forward to seeing you next time.