What is Mindstream? – Drukama RadioTM Episode 16
Today Daishi talks with Yuvi on the subject of Mindstream. What is Mindstream? What is the relationship between Karma and Mindstream? How can we rise above our conscious and unconscious processes to regain control of our lives?
Episode 16 Extract
What is Mindstream?
“How many people are in my head? Right… so, if I’m listening to my own brain, it’s not me. So, when someone says, “wait I’m thinking, I’m talking to myself, hold on a second”, well, which one is the self? You know, you’ve got to be one or the other, you can’t be both.
And as we go down this path, we realise it – there is a whole bunch of voices in there! I don’t know if they’re all originating from one other source or if they’re all independent sources. Some of them hate the neighbour’s cat and some of them want me to do terrible things…
So, we’ve got all these symphony of conversations going on and we don’t know why. Like, what is all this noise?!
…And this is one of the troubles that we find in human society is that, unconsciously we’re associating with all this noise. In other words, we believe that it’s us. We believe that all of this noise is me. And that’s a terrible way to live because it’s not!…”
~ Daishi Nagiyah
Drukama™ podcast extract – EP16
Full Transcript of this Episode
Yuvi: Welcome to Drukama Radio. I am Yuvi and I will be your co-host for this episode. We are very fortunate today to have Daishi with us. How are you sir?
Daishi: I’m doing great. It’s good to hear your voice. I’m glad to have this time to talk with you and I’m looking forward to seeing you real soon back over on the other side of the world.
Yuvi: Yes… And today’s topic is Mindstream.
So this term, mind stream, it comes up quite a lot in our group, but for the new people listening, what is meant when we use the word mindstream and what is it truly?
Daishi: Mindstream. It encompasses basically all the action of the brain; the physiological brain, the way it communicates to us on a conscious, subconscious, if we want to use that word, and unconscious level. So the bridge between the deeper consciousness, called the unconscious, and the present conscious level of mindstream would be the kind of mindstream that we can hear and see, so like the song that keeps playing in the background of our daily life that we don’t know how turned on or how it got there, we are not sure why it is playing, we don’t know how to make it stop; the conversations we apparently have with ourselves. Who is talking to who? There’s some voice there, the suggestions, the whispers, the murmuring, the judgements, the abstractions, all of these conditions that come up, that I either completely associate with or comes out of nowhere and I don’t know why it is there. All of that would be considered mindstream. And then to finish the thought, there is a deeper brand of that, which is what we call the aggregates, which we can get into later, but just generally speaking, mindstream is anything that is happening in the brain that we don’t consider ourselves – and that changes as the path goes on.
Yuvi: You mentioned something there about the different levels of the mind, conscious, subconscious and unconscious.
So, are there different levels to mindstream as well that correspond to those levels of the mind?
Daishi: Sure, because we’re only aware of what we’re aware of. So there are still voices, there is still mindstream, there is still action of the brain that is happening that we might not be really conscious of. So when we say mindstream from the conscious perspective that could be a question that pops up: “Did I lose my tea? Where did I put my keys? Where am I going at 1 o’clock?” or some discussion about the future or some mindstream that shows me a projection of a memory, or some mindstream that is a communicative mindstream, something that I can point to would be considered conscious mindstream.
But when we get to the unconscious mindstream – this is mindstream that is happening, that I am not aware of yet. So it is mindstream that is going on, it is still happening, but I can’t point it out. And usually this kind of mindstream will erupt and influence us either in the outside environment, the outside world or come up in the form of physiological conditions like sensations and pains and aches and agonies or it will come out in the form of emotion, emotional responses, so things that necessarily we are not aware of why they are corresponding back to us unconscious mindstream, but the root of all things is the mindstream itself. So, what if I am feeling agitated in the morning as an example, and I can’t really point to why I’m agitated? So in other words, I don’t know why I feel angry or anxious. I can’t really point to anything directly that would make me feel that way. That is conditioned to an unconscious part of mindstream. A place where the root began in the brain but we just don’t know where.
The conscious mindstream on the other hand is where I can deliberately point – there was a judgement made about that person and I heard it clearly, and I was aware that that judgement was made and then I had a reactionary feeling about it as well. So those two levels, conscious and unconscious, just mean that I am aware of the root, I am aware of the brain’s beginning aspect. The degree of that [awareness] is dependent on where we are on the Path, but [either] I’m aware of that or I’m not aware of it. Unconscious of it means I am not aware of it. Something happened and I’m just not sure where it originated, where its origination-point was.
Yuvi: One of the things you start to notice as you make more distance between you and the thoughts is how little control you really have over this process. It is making you worry about some event that hasn’t even happened yet in the future, or reliving past events.
So who is generating the mindstream and who is listening to it – and why is this process happening, seemingly without my explicit consent?
Daishi: That’s a great question! And that’s really where the path starts for most people. Why would. You know how many people are in my head? Right? [laughter] So, if I am listening to my own brain, it is not me. So when someone says I am thinking and talking to myself, hold on a second, well which one of is the Self? You know, you gotta be one or the other. You can’t be both. And as we go down this Path we realize that there is a whole bunch of voices in there! I don’t know if they are all originating from one other source or if they are all independent sources; some of them hate the neighbors cat, and some of them want me to do terrible things, some of them want me to go after attractions and others want me to run from aversions, some of them are judgemental, some of them are erratic.
So we got this symphony of conversations going on and we don’t know why. Like what is all this noise? And so as we make distance, as you said, as we start to become clearer about this and more aware of what is going on in the mind, we begin to notice that there are a lot of things happening up there – like you said, I don’t really consent to. I haven’t asked for and I’m not generating. And this is one of the troubles that we find in human society – unconsciously we are associating with all this noise. In other words, we believe that it is us. We believe that all of this noise is me. And that’s a terrible way to live because it’s not! If you can observe something it is not the observer. Right? In other words if you can see it, if you are aware of it, it can’t be the awareness. It can’t be the Source. It is something after origination.
It is something after the Source I should say. So the voice in your head, the emotions going on, the physiological aches and pains that you are noticing, that you are becoming aware of, are vibrations or movements outside of the awareness and they can’t necessarily be you. And this is what we’re trying to take note of because the more unconscious we entangle with all of this mental mindstream, emotional energy and physiological vibration-sensation and whatnot, the more we are driven by it, and controlled by it. So we have to back away from the vessel. We have to back away from the vehicle; [away from] the brain-body vehicle enough so that we can make a determination between where do I, or whatever that is, begin and where does all this other voice and nonsense begin?
So that I can see where I am and where it is – and I stop allowing it to drive my experience and perception. And that’s the basis of the foundation of the path. It has to begin there. Once we make that distance big enough then we can actually start the mystical journey that happens beyond into Stream or what we call Realization or Nirvana and so on and so forth. We move beyond. But that has to be done first. And that is where all the hard work is; because we are really lost and entangled in there, so we are not really sure like what part of the stickiness of egoic mindstream is me and what part of it is just nonsense happening in the brain physiological-body aspect.
And this is the hard work part of the process. But there are ways to get through that very quickly and aggressively. And there are ways to go through that very slowly and methodically over time. It depends on the angst of the practitioner – some practitioners want to cut right through and want to move right into the advanced portions of the Path and they work very hard in quality and quantity and others just want to take their time and kind of walk through this slowly.
Yuvi: I used to think that being meditative or doing meditation is all about somehow stopping the flow of thoughts, I mean it is even an expression, “Clear your mind”, “Empty your mind”, but does that even work? And what should our attitude be toward mindstream; should we battle it? Should we embrace it? Ignore it? What should we do?
Daishi: It’s a great question. So how do you face this? What’s the way to handle this? Now there are certain advanced practices that allow us to watch, definitely we need to watch it, we need to become aware of it, because once we’re aware of it, it stops being an unconscious process. Once we’re aware of it, it’s no longer unconscious and we’re no longer unaware of it – we’re aware. Once you become aware of it then we can build strength of Will. So the brain – the physiological brain and body – can do what it wants to do, it can be free without battling, fighting and getting into aggravated assaults with this weird grappling like match between the mindstream and the physiological body and the awareness itself – the cognition.
We want everyone to be happy, right? We want the whole family of the body to be happy and to do whatever it wants naturally and organically. So if the brain wants to ramble on, I don’t want to coerce it or battle it to stop doing that. I don’t want to fight with it constantly. It is going to wear me out – that’s not a very good life. To try and fight the brain; “No you will do this, you will do that!” this kind of control measure is not what we want, we are trying to get away from us being controlled and us controlling. That’s the point of the path – it’s liberation and freedom. So we want us to say to the brain “Do what you want to do, you be as neurotic as you want, you be as crazy as you want, as judgemental as you want, abstract all you want, go into the past, go into the future – do all of those things and you enjoy.” And you know let the body have its emotional fun and physiological fun – that’s all good.
All that we really want to do is just become aware that we are not that thing. And through that knowing, that awareness, that experience of knowing I am not those neurotic thoughts, in that there is massive freedom there. And that allows us to cut the karmic cords – the habit energy, the entanglements to that mindstream over time so that inevitably the unconscious and the conscious become totally clear to us. There’s no more unconscious mindstream, it’s all available and all radiantly clear to us so that we can detach from all of it and then fall backwards into our natural Essential Nature which is Stream or Nirvana or Enlightened Perception.
Because it’s no longer noisy or entangled in anything unconscious. And it’s no longer entangled by anything in the mindstream or anything in the physiological body, it is completely released and completely free. And then from that point, from clear and non-filtered clear perception, we can then adequately go after building the higher sense – the spiritual sense – which allows us to perceive reality beyond the five senses and give us a better dataset. In other words, we get more information because we know the five senses are limited, from the higher sixth spiritual sense, and from there we can make proper perceptions about reality in a pure form.
Yuvi: You mentioned karma and karmic entanglements there. So we are causing or creating more karma not by just our physical actions but also the thoughts that we empower?
Daishi: Absolutely! Because karma just really represents, in its purest form, the subtle movement of energy and the echoing of that energy that becomes – it blooms into mind, emotion, physiological action and macrocosmic or outside world reactions-actions and then boomerangs back onto us in the form of habit-energy. So it really begins right at the seed of vibration. When energy just starts to wave – when it just starts to vibrate – it’s begun – karma’s begun.
If we don’t entangle with that wave, if we don’t believe that the wave is us. And we make distinction between where I am and the wave is and we just observe the wave go out and come back in, no entanglement to that karma happens. We’re free of that. But if at any point in that cascade, in that fractal of movement the iterations that happened from this seed point of vibration through mindstream, thoughts, through emotions, through speech and action, and through reaction in the outside world, if we fall into the unconscious, the belief that it has something to do with me – me, the illusory self – then we’re entangled to the karma.
So karma isn’t really a bad thing or a good thing. All it really means is that there’s a wave that goes out and comes back. Whether we are attached to it or not. And whether we learn to detach from it or remove ourselves from it [or not]; [that] is how we either add or remove karma. And the idea of adding and removing karma is that the more karma we add the more we become entangled in the delusion of the world. And the more karma we let go of, the more we become free of the delusion of the world. So we either going closer and tighter and becoming more compressed, contracted and more “me, my, mine”– selfing illusionary delusional or we’re extracting and growing, expanding and releasing and becoming free and absolutely clear and boundless; and not controlled and free to express our natural essence – which is something beyond just the temporal body which comes and goes and comes and goes.
Yuvi: Yeah… that sounds like something I would enjoy! [laughter]
Daishi: Yes, it does enjoy it, it’s just about getting there! Right?
Yuvi: So basically we are creating our own experience with our entanglements to mindstream?
Daishi: You are agreeing instead of creating, you are just agreeing to just allowing the brain to create your world. You are riding along someone else’s journey. Because the physiological body and the illusory identity has already been conditioned to do and say everything that it is going to do and say by the way it has been influenced ever since it was gestated in the mother. Right? So it has been conditioned and controlled to become what it is – and we either follow that path and go “God I was born under a lucky or unlucky star and I’m just following this along and jeez, I don’t know, I guess I’m fortunate, my life is good or I’m unfortunate and my life is bad”. This is not us in control of anything.
This is just following a path, and saying, “I don’t know. It’s taking me here!” instead of being fully in control which is to release the connection to that completely. And then from radiant awareness really from there decide whether we want to go left, right, up, down and that’s where we really disengage from free will and non free-will. If we are entirely entangled to that illusory self and its societally and culturally influenced identity then we are tied down to what it is going to say and do and that can be all programmed out. I mean we can figure out, almost precisely, what you’ll say, do and how your life will be based on those influences if we had a computer big enough.
But once we let go of that, where our intention changes and shifts, and we let go of that, then we actually get more and more ability to choose and decide because we have boundlessness. We are no longer tied to a binary and dualistic processor. Now we have a sense that transcends that and goes beyond that. That’s where the evolution of man is going. It is going to be beyond brain, and it is going to be beyond dualistic thinking. And we either jump on that train or we get run over by it.
Yuvi: Yeah! Talking about things that influence us I’ve often noticed that the sense impressions that I take in from the outside world through music, TV, any media, it tends to become the content of my mindstream. So in the beginning would it be beneficial to reduce these external sense-impressions?
Daishi: Well you said it right! The beginning is the point. There is some place, at some point in the path, where you have enough will that you’ve become clear enough that these things no longer influence you the same way. Then you’re free from it and then just like anything can come and go and I’m sort of clear. It doesn’t matter what music, doesn’t matter what’s happening outside or inside of me, I’m clear from it now. But in the beginning – ugh! – it’s harmful. Because we’re not able to have the strength – just like a small child isn’t – to not be influenced by everything that is bombarding them.
So it really helps to remove ourselves from the things that we know we can’t control – their influence on us. In other words, I know that somehow if a television is playing in the background and I’m beginning the Path, that television is influencing me in ways I couldn’t possibly understand. The same way that social media and advertising, magazines and radio and cellphones and sort of everything is influencing me in ways I couldn’t imagine. I don’t mean just deliberately, I’m not saying just in the marketing way – because that’s a deliberate influence. I mean just in the way that just humans don’t understand.
They are shaping the way we perceive reality. They are limiting our view even further. They are making more filters. So in the beginning it is best to try and cut out some of the negative influences that we know we can’t control. Look, I don’t want to add a bunch of more karma – I don’t want to ride through a bunch more impressions and all kinds of influences if I’m trying to release myself from them. So it’s good to sort of separate yourself from it as much as you can. And of course you got to be in the world … but it’s good to separate yourself from the things you can see that’s not really helping me, and I mean this isn’t going to do anything good for me specially if I’m trying to become clear of it all – and to be wise and sensible about that kind of approach.
Some of it you have to look at it – well, I have to do these things – I gotta be part of my job and family and so okay I gotta deal with that, but I’m going to limit the places that I can so they don’t influence me unnecessarily when I’m trying to get removed from the crazy nonsense of my illusory self – of that kind of temporary transient self that has been created by my parents, my friends and the government and my schools and you know, I want to get away from that person – limited and has filters and judgements, abstractions, conditions that is going to bind me down to a journey that is probably most likely laden in suffering and pains.
Even though I might find sometime some relief from it I am eventually going to be sit by myself and go “Boy, life sucks!” You know at some point someone will have that conversation with themselves and say, “boy why can’t I ever find any satisfaction? I mean I work hard, I try hard, my relationships, my control and power and influence, and all these things, I just can’t sustainable satisfaction from this.” And then at that point you can realize you are looking in the wrong way. And it’s never coming from that direction. You gotta go inside and you’ve got to get rid of the very engine that is producing that dissatisfaction.
Yuvi: People that are starting out on the Path and feel they want to detangle from the mindstream but maybe they need a little help. Where can they go?
Daishi: They can go, like we always say, Drukama.com, we’re happy to help you. If you don’t come to us, find somebody that knows this path and can help you through it. Because it’s hard to do it from your own vantage point. It’s hard for you to navigate out of that wilderness because you’ve never done it before and you don’t know the directions and where you are going and what to look out for, and you need a teacher who can help you get through that. That’s why we see in the major mystical traditions that are over a thousand years old that there is always a teacher-student relationship because that passed on teaching is important! To try and go do this and just … it’s sort of like building a rocket ship – I’m not an astronaut, I’m not a physicist – I don’t know anything about astronomy or jet propulsion or engineering, but I’m just gonna go ahead and try and build a space shuttle.
That’s going to be pretty difficult! I mean you can try and eventually maybe somebody will do it in their lifetime. But the chances of following backward into it are pretty rare and pretty hard. So to make it easy on yourself – find somebody who has accomplished this authentically and seek them out! That’s the way to go. So as we are launching this program for people generally and you know, you’ve been around for a while, but people that are honestly looking for this for the first time can go to our website at DRUKAMA.COM and we have classes there, we have teachers there – or you can go and find someone; and unfortunately I say there is a lack of good teaching – but you can find somebody that has been through it, who is willing to work with you and help you through this process. Now as I finish this thought the benefit of this and the reason why this freedom is sought after by so many people through so many generations and its been one of the things that have carried forward through our human history because the outcome of it – the place where you arrive and you wipe away the illusory self and beyond is so unimaginably beautiful. So radiantly crystal clear and so absolutely pristine that it is worth every single moment of its work. It is worth this whole life to put into it.
Because once it’s achieved, you’re done. You released, there’s no more working at it, there’s no more practicing at it, you’re free! And once that freedom happens, it can’t be spoken about – but it’s beyond bliss, it’s beyond anything you can imagine! So it’s important that people seek this. Because if they don’t, you are simply going to be carried off in this same way routine of trying to satiate the need for pleasure, getting that fulfilled for a little while, but as that rat race continues, you will never get to the end of it. It’ll always be rhythms that come back and come back and come back. So if you don’t spend this precious time as a human being on this little ball floating out in the middle of nowhere, trying to get that and win that Stream Entry or Nirvana place, you’ve wasted this life. Because you’ve simply just run from one thing to another and that’s an ignorant view – it really is.
Because that’s never going to get you where you need to go and it should be clear to anyone whose matured to a certain place – I’m not going to be satisfied – no matter what I do – okay everything is good and I’m happy and I’m blissful and I’m clear – okay, so? If you think about that for a moment you’ll understand it’s not coming from the outside – it has to be from within. So I say start the journey now, it doesn’t take a long time, but it does take work and effort, because we have to do undo what has been done – we have to undo the entanglements. So try to get involved – either with us or someone else, sooner rather than later. The world is in the same place for decades because people have not fully understood this human brain-body well enough, and realize that it’s a phenomenal vessel, a phenomenal vehicle and we don’t know how to drive it – so we need to gain some insight and understand to it a little further.
Yuvi: Can you give us a little update on a potential launch date?
Daishi: We are just finishing some – and I say we — not me — but the team is finishing up some introduction videos that they have been working on, so we are really close now, and a bunch of free content will be available for people to see so people can learn about the process. I am looking forward to seeing a launch in a week, 10 days, something like that? We’re running as fast as we can toward it, but I’m at the mercy of the creative and brilliant people of the amazing people putting it together, and I want them to do what they need to do without any pressure. But I also know that there are many people that have asked us about getting involved right away and there’s a line for that that’s building – so we are working as fast as possible but at the same time, we are trying to do it the right way …
Yuvi: Cool! Well I can’t wait. Thank you so much for joining us today Daishi. We appreciate you finding time out of your hectic schedule.
Daishi: Thank you for having me here today. You did a phenomenal job. I appreciate very much you putting your time out like this and giving your time to the people out there who are listening, because this show does a lot of good for a lot of people so thank you as well.
Yuvi: It was a pleasure to be here – thank you. If you have any questions or comments about today’s show or anything else related to Drukama Radio™ so sent us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org. Thanks for joining us – rate and review the show if you feel like it. And see you on the next one!